Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 6th, 2021

[Margaret McIntosh]

I think you said the word “discrimination”. Is that the element you're looking at?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

No, I just.... It's always an interesting thing for me when it comes to reserve lands or people who live on reserve. Is justice a responsibility of Indigenous Services Canada, or is it a responsibility of the justice department of Canada? Are you following what I'm trying to ask there?

To some degree, I would like to see courts and tribunals happening on the reserve, so that we don't have to go far away to resolve some of these issues, and also, then, we could speed up the entire process.

Does the justice department of Canada see that as its responsibility or does it see that as an Indigenous Services responsibility? Which department does that fall into?

[Margaret McIntosh]

I think every federal department that's represented today has a little piece of the picture here. That's part of the problem. There are so many different players and so many issues.

I've already talked about administration of justice agreements, where we're trying to fix some of these problems by working with individual first nations to bring all the players to the table together. We have the opportunity to develop tribunals on reserve or to enhance enforcement and prosecution issues on individual reserves, but it is a very complex system. The provinces are very much involved as well, and the police forces are a key to resolving these issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thanks, Mr. Viersen.

We'll go to Mr. Powlowski for five minutes.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Like everyone else, I find this very complicated. My understanding is that laws of general applicability apply on reserves. Although the Criminal Code is a federal jurisdiction in general, generally speaking it's the province that prosecutes Criminal Code offences, right? This isn't under the PPSC, and it isn't normally federal prosecutors who would prosecute Criminal Code offences on reserve.

[Jeff Richstone]

That's correct, sir, except if it's north of 60, but there are no reserves north of 60.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

You talked about the prosecution of bylaws under the Indian Act and the problems with doing so. My understanding is that you've worked out a process whereby you can prosecute those, but first of all you have to review those bylaws for constitutionality and you have to come up with an agreement with the first nation before you enforce them, right? My understanding is that this is a new process.

[Marke Kilkie]

That's right. It's a new process and is just in place for the pandemic.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I'm a little confused here, in that the Indian Act, I think, is from 1876. It has been 145 years since it was written. I know it has been amended numerous times; however, I would think that the provisions related to control of infectious diseases were in there from the beginning. What has been happening in 145 years? Have they just been sitting there unprosecuted for 145 years?

[Marke Kilkie]

I won't pretend there isn't a gap. A gap has existed for decades. We recognized that gap, and before the pandemic came upon us we had undertaken to work with our partners to find solutions.

The solution we have in place now is very much a stopgap approach, a risk-managed approach. We still need a broader solution that brings together the various partners, including very much the provinces—the provincial attorneys general, the provincially appointed police officers, and frankly the provincial courts, where these offences have to be prosecuted.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Now, these new agreements.... I've spoken to Chief Peter Collins of Fort William First Nation numerous times since the beginning of the pandemic. He has repeatedly voiced his frustration with the inability to enforce bylaws he's made under the Indian Act. I would suggest, but perhaps I'm wrong, that the fact that the bands, the first nations, can make these agreements with PPSC isn't something that's broadly known among the chiefs.

What has your ministry done in order to inform the chiefs that this is an option that is open to them? As I say, they don't seem to know, and this is the first time I've heard anything about this.

[Marke Kilkie]

I am not surprised by that. We are not reaching out. We don't have that capacity. We're not a typical department with that kind of outreach or programs. We are here to act on behalf of the Attorney General. We're a very small department. We have put this in place knowing that it's not perfect, and have been doing it when approached by communities.

No, we have not issued a blanket communications strategy to let people know that this is available. We're doing it through word of mouth, primarily through the RCMP.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Finally, you said these bylaws have to be reviewed, first to make sure they can do this under the terms of the Indian Act, and second to make sure these bylaws are constitutional. I know many municipal bylaws are made by municipalities and the power is delegated to them by the province to make the bylaws. Are these subject to the same requirement—that before somebody's going to prosecute those bylaws, some parent organization has to review them and make sure they're constitutional?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Please be brief.

[Marke Kilkie]

I can't speak to that, because we don't prosecute municipal bylaws. We prosecute federal statutes on behalf of the Attorney General of Canada. We're looking for the same kind of review that all federal bills and legislation go through before they go to Parliament, so that we can be applying the same standard on behalf of the Attorney General that we do in all the other situations in which we prosecute.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thank you very much.

Madam Bérubé, you have two and a half minutes.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is about First Nations police services. Earlier, Ms. Mugford talked about Indigenous police services, about self-determination and about protecting their territory.

What training have members of First Nations police services received?

[Douglas May, Acting Director General, Programs Directorate, Emergency Management Programs, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

I'm Douglas May with Public Safety Canada.

The training first nations officers get depends on the kind of model or agreement the first nation is subject to. If it is a community tripartite model, which is where essentially the RCMP are the police of jurisdiction, then that training is done through the RCMP depot, etc. If it is through a self-administered police agreement whereby the police services are authorized or established by the provincial or territorial government, it's the jurisdiction that would be responsible for that training. For example, in B.C. it would be the justice institute and in Ontario it would be the OPP, etc. It depends largely on the jurisdiction in that regard.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Many studies refer to systemic racism.

What is the situation for First Nations police services? Is there any trust in that regard?

[Douglas May]

That is something I cannot speak to. I apologize.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Talbot, did you wish to speak to that?

[Jacques Talbot]

I can clarify a little.

The policing agreements signed with Indigenous communities to fund their police services are tripartite agreements signed with provincial governments. They establish their training requirements in those agreements. The principle is that Indigenous police officers receive the same training as non-Indigenous officers.

In Quebec [inaudible] or Ontario, the provinces also require cultural sensitivity training that officers must receive. Very often, the First Nations themselves play a role in establishing the programs designed for them.

The Government of Quebec has some very interesting initiatives. Of course, the people responsible would be in a much better position than we are to talk about them, particularly about what being is done at collegiate level or at the Institut de police du Québec in Nicolet. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police training depot also…

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

We'll have to interrupt there. I'm sorry. We're just about out of time.

We'll go to Ms. Blaney for two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Mr. Traynor, if I could, I'll ask you a question. I'm hoping you're the right branch.

I guess what I'm trying to understand a little more is that there has been some money announced in the 2021 budget. What will be the mechanism for getting those resources to indigenous communities, to first nations communities? Will there be an application process? Will there be a rating? What will be the criteria?

As has been said a few times, it is a complex multi-jurisdictional challenge, so I'm wondering how will it be rolled out and in what kind of program. Do you know that answer at this point?

[Stephen Traynor]

At this point in time, I'd have to get back to you on that question. I do not have any information about it but will endeavour to get back to you.