Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 20th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 100 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We recognize that we meet on the unceded territory of the Algonquin and Anishinabe peoples.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

Welcome, Ms. Ashton. Everybody else is here in person. Ms. Ashton, you've done lots of Zoom. You know how to run everything, so I'll just get right into it.

We have a bit of housekeeping.

The leader of the government in the House announced that Thursday, March 21, 2024, will be the final allotted day in the current period, which means that all the votes in the supplementary estimates (C), 2023-24, will be deemed reported to the House as of the ordinary hour of daily adjournment on Monday, March 18, 2024.

Did everybody get that?

As such, any committees studying the supplementary estimates (C) after Monday, March 18, 2024, will not do so under the order of reference from the House. This study and subsequent report, if desired by the committee, will have to be done under Standing Order 108. Please note that in this case, the committee will not adopt the votes.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, February 26, 2024, the committee is meeting to discuss the subject matter of the supplementary estimates (C). We won't be reporting back to the House. It's subject matter only. That's what this tells us.

With that, I'd like to welcome our witnesses at the table today, starting with the Honourable Patty Hajdu, Minister of Indigenous Services. Welcome, Minister.

From the department, we have many officials. Thank you for being here.

We have Gina Wilson, deputy minister; Candice St-Aubin, senior assistant deputy minister; Paula Hadden-Jokiel, assistant deputy minister; Nathalie Nepton, acting assistant deputy minister, education and social development programs and partnerships; Nelson Barbosa, director general, regional operations; Katrina Peddle, director general, Act respecting First Nations, Inuit and Métis children, youth and families branch; Jessica Sultan, director general, economic and business opportunities, lands and economic development; Jonathan Allen, acting director general, education and social development programs and partnerships; and Philippe Thompson, chief of finances and results and delivery officer.

Welcome, everyone.

I'm going to use a little card system here. The yellow card means 30 seconds are left. The red card means that time is up. Don't stop mid-sentence, but wind up your thoughts, and we'll continue on with the next speaker.

With that, Minister, I assume that you're going to make the opening statement for five minutes. When you're ready, the floor is yours.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Minister of Indigenous Services]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the officials for taking time away from their busy jobs to be with me today. I thought it would be good to have the team with us so that they can answer to the level of detail that I think this committee deserves.

It's truly a joy to be with you here on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I'd like to turn to the progress that our Liberal government has made towards reconciliation over the past eight years.

Prior to our government's election in 2015, the Conservatives had cut funding and refused to meet with indigenous chiefs.

Under Justin Trudeau, our government has made reconciliation a priority these past eight years.

That begins with water.

As you know, the previous Conservative government ignored the needs of first nations communities for clean water, and as a result, when we were elected, 105 long-term boil water advisories were in place. However, today, after working with communities and increasing investments by over 150%, the vast majority of first nations have clean drinking water they can trust.

We still have 4% of communities who live with a long-term advisory, but there is a plan under way for each of them, and Canadians can follow along online in terms of the status of the advisories for those communities.

As we know, we do need to be focused on sustained, equitable support for water systems, because if we don't have ongoing investments, not just in the equipment that serves first nations people but in the training for the maintenance, all of that progress could vanish. Reconciliation is not a destination but a journey, and it requires a long-term commitment, regardless of which party is leading the country.

That's why Bill C-61, the first nations clean water act, is so important to partners. This piece of legislation was developed through historic participation with first nations, and it restores the rights of first nations to manage their own water systems.

For the very first time in our history, it holds the federal government accountable for equitable funding for water systems in first nations. In fact, it installs an ability for first nations to work with the Government of Canada to determine levels of funding that will ensure clean water for generations to come.

The AFN is calling on Parliament to pass that bill, because as Chief Erica Beaudin of Cowessess First Nation said, “indigenous people, indigenous children deserve to be conceived, born and die [with] clean water [access]”.

It was therefore distressing for partners who were in the audience that day to see, on the first day of debate, a Conservative member of Parliament choose instead to repeat very tired stereotypes, ignoring the discriminatory funding as a cause of that lack of water. Many first nations people were deeply hurt by those comments, and many are still waiting for a sincere apology.

Indigenous peoples are also leading change in the housing sector. I recently celebrated the construction of new homes in the Liard First Nation with Chief Charlie. He told me that housing was essential to people's health and well-being. You know as well as I do that we still have a long way to go.

The report from the Auditor General yesterday shows that decades of colonialism and underinvestment have had significant and deep impacts on indigenous communities, and it's why our Liberal government has increased spending on housing for indigenous people by over 1,100%.

For the first time in recent history, the proportion of people living in overcrowded homes has stabilized and is starting to decrease. It's a huge contrast to the approach of the previous government, which resulted in only 99 houses built in first nations for a cost of $300 million.

In contrast, since 2015, over 34,000 homes have been built or renovated in first nations, with 22,000 already completed. This is fundamental because, as all of you know, better housing means that more people can reach their true potential.

Mr. Chair, I've said it already: Reconciliation is not a destination; it's a relationship, and respect is at the foundation of every good relationship. We must work directly with communities to address their needs, tackle the systemic issues they are facing and transfer the service delivery back under their control.

I know that this is an uncomfortable approach for those who are more comfortable with the paternalism of the past, but paternalism has not resulted in healthy communities and people. This government is working to live up to the promise of a Canada where everyone can truly reach their full potential, and we can only do that in partnership with indigenous peoples.

Meegwetch.Qujannamiik.Marsii. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That was awesome timing. Thank you, Minister.

We're going to go into our first round of questions. They are six minutes each.

First up, I have Mr. Schmale. The floor is yours.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing today.

Minister, I met with the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation today. They mentioned that in 2019, they were approved—tender-ready and shovel-ready—for their medical centre, but they have yet to receive funding.

In 30 seconds or less, can you explain why?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Well, as you would know, MP Schmale, medical centres and health provisions are a joint responsibility of the province and the federal government, along with the first nations who often deliver care through nursing centres.

I can tell you that negotiations of that kind are under way on a regular basis for many different infrastructure projects, but I would have to turn to officials about that specific project.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Be very quick, please.

[Candice St-Aubin, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services]

Thank you for the question.

I think the minister has covered the big points. There are ongoing conversations. As you can imagine, there are several requests in the system right now. We look forward to continuing to work with communities to ensure that the funding flows quickly and that there can be actual shovels in the ground to ensure that it's ready.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much.

Minister, as you know, 133 chiefs in Ontario have come together to come out against the carbon tax. In fact, they're taking your government to court because they do not feel they were heard. Some of these chiefs are in your riding.

Do you feel it's time to axe the tax?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think I've responded to this question before, certainly in the media.

In fact, that's a misrepresentation of what the letter says. What the letter says is that the chiefs would like a larger rebate from the carbon tax. In fact, should that not be possible.... Obviously, they wanted a positive answer from the government. I'm really pleased to say that the finance minister signed off just a couple of days ago on doubling the rebate for indigenous communities from 1% to 2%.

That will be good news for the Chiefs of Ontario. I'm really looking forward to being able to work with the Chiefs of Ontario on their priorities in making life affordable for first nations people and keeping a healthy environment for the next generations, and in fact the next seven generations to come.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

The carbon tax on the cost of fuel, on the cost of food, on the cost of transport, on the cost of the actual retailer selling it—that all has implications across the chain. I seem to miss how they are actually getting a better quality of life if throughout that food chain the costs are going up in every way.

As the Parliamentary Budget Officer has shown, the rebates are not helping non-indigenous Canadians, and indigenous peoples are now dealing with the fact that the rebate is next to nothing. I still don't understand how life is becoming more affordable.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I will tell you that the conversations I have with first nations people really focus on two things. One is to end the ongoing colonialism that indigenous people have faced at the hands of many governments, but in particular under the previous government, which not only didn't invest in first nations communities but refused to meet with first nations leaders to talk about these very issues.

The second most common thing I talk about with first nations people is actually the climate. In Alberta—

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Did you take a meeting with the Ontario chiefs when they asked for a meeting regarding the carbon tax?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I have met with the Ontario chiefs multiple times. In fact, Glen Hare and I are colleagues and acquaintances. I would say that I will meet with any first nations chief who wishes to do so, and I do so on a regular basis.

However, let me finish my thought, Mr. Chair. In Alberta, when I met with Alberta chiefs a few months back, their biggest concern was what was going to happen with the drying-up aquifers and the lack of water that the entire province is dealing with right now. It's a deep concern. Not only will this prevent access to drinking water; all of the other ways that water is used by first nation communities and economic development is hampered by the ongoing onslaught of climate change. That is the second most frequent thing I talk about.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

You mentioned water advisories. Neskantaga, in my friend Eric Melillo's riding, has been on a boil water advisory for 29 years. Can you please update us on the status of that situation?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Absolutely.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Can you do it in 30 seconds or less?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Absolutely.

I hope Mr. Melillo has visited Neskantaga. I have, and I have a deep relationship with Chief Moonias. As a matter of fact, he was in Ottawa just a few weeks ago. He is quite happy with the progress we're making. There are a number of conditions that he thinks need to be in place, and our engineers agree, before he is comfortable with proceeding with a lift. He feels very confident that for the very first time, he is working with a government that is listening to Neskantaga's needs.

I invite you to visit Neskantaga and meet Chief Moonias. They are an incredible community.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I can tell you that Mr. Melillo is doing a great job for that riding and in bringing their concerns to Ottawa.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I hope he's visited Neskantaga. I certainly would love to bring him any time—

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Minister, this is my time, if you don't mind. Thank you very much.

We're going to talk about housing now, because you brought it up.

In the Auditor General's report, the Auditor General is showing that there doesn't seem to have been any improvement in housing since 2015. In fact, only one of the ISC regional offices collected information about the mould strategy, which was created in 2008. Can you explain why?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I can certainly tell you that for the very first time in the history of this country, we're seeing the loss of housing beginning to stop. That's important, because as I mentioned in my opening remarks, year after year we were seeing a decline in the availability of housing for first nations.

Do we have more to do? We absolutely, without a doubt, have more to do. We have massive investments ahead of us. It will take all of us not voting against things like investments in affordable housing on first nations, which I have seen and noted that your members vote against time and time again. That, quite frankly, is shameful.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Actually, what we're voting against is confidence in this government.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

What we need all parties to do is pull together and insist that we spend more money to close that gap. I look forward to doing that work with you.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Well, more money than ever is being spent, but the conditions are not getting any better.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time on this round. I'm going to cut off this round of questions and go to the next one.

I have Mr. Powlowski first up, for the Liberal side.