Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 20th, 2024

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Welcome to committee, Patty.

I want to ask you for an update on where the $2 billion that our government had committed for indigenous health will be going.

I think the last time we spoke, you quite rightly said you were waiting to hear from indigenous communities themselves as to where they'd like to see the money go.

I'm going to give you a prolonged period to respond to this question, but let me just talk about a few of the things I've heard from the indigenous community within my riding.

Certainly one of the suggestions from Fort William First Nation was about the possibility of funding their chronic care home. As I think you know, both Chief Solomon and Chief Collins have really made that a priority in health care.

The second thing I wanted to ask about was funding for land-based treatment for both addictions and mental health. Again, several different indigenous communities in my riding have asked me about that. They're looking for funding for that.

Lastly, I'll ask about any funding for indigenous people who live off reserve. As you know, a lot of indigenous people spend part of their time on reserve and part of their time off reserve. Thunder Bay has a large indigenous population.

I wonder if you could answer the question overall, but also in response to those three specific areas.

You're welcome to ask any of your many able assistants.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you, and I will, for some of the details.

Let me just start with the $2-billion health equity fund. I'm really glad you raised this point.

This is an innovative new support for first nations across the country—indigenous people, quite frankly—who have oftentimes faced extreme racism in health care systems in provincial and territorial systems.

In fact, it arises from the sad case of Joyce Echaquan, who, as you know, died filming her own abuse. That led to the indigenous health care summit, which was held during the pandemic, where we heard from health experts, indigenous health experts and individuals about what we could do together to better help with the experiences that indigenous people face in health care every day.

It's ongoing, by the way. I don't want to leave the impression that Joyce was an isolated incident. These kinds of things are happening every day in every health care system, either intentionally or oftentimes through systemic design that just doesn't meet people's needs. Quite frankly, these systems have been designed in ways that exclude the realities of indigenous people.

The Prime Minister committed to this $2-billion health equity fund to help indigenous groups, leaders and communities that have innovative ideas about how to bridge that gap between health care provision in provinces and territories and the expectations that they have in terms of better health outcomes. It complements the work that Minister Holland is doing on renewing those health care transfers.

By the way, I've been at all of those meetings with provinces and territories with indigenous partners to talk about our expectation that we eliminate racism in health care.

I will turn to Candice to talk about how that money's being divided and about some of the innovation that you're hearing for how people will use that money.

[Candice St-Aubin]

Thank you for the question.

The indigenous health equity fund will be flowing out to communities regionally on April 1.

We are currently engaging in how that will be implemented. As you are aware, this will provide 10-year funding sustainability and will maximize innovation. Certainly we're encouraging communities to look at what their needs are and to invest in that.

With the 10 years, they're able to move that money around to target different initiatives, including land-based treatment, as you were talking about. It's certainly looking at how best to address substance and opioid realities that we're seeing in communities, and it's also working with provinces to try to leverage the funding that's currently going into the health transfers to maximize those.

It could be much more clinical care and also around virtual hubs, supporting e-health and in particular mental health e-health, to maybe alleviate some of the medical transportation that's required in more northern and remote communities.

We do see a lot of innovation happening at the community level, which they're driving. This is allowing them greater flexibility to plan that care and maybe amplify those aspects.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Are you considering funding chronic care homes? That's big in Fort William First Nation and I think also in Rainy River First Nations.

[Candice St-Aubin]

That's a valuable question.

What I would say is that the beauty of the indigenous health equity fund is that it is up to communities to determine where that need is. We are not prescriptive. We allow broad flexibilities, because we do already provide a level of funding.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

That being said, there are lots of indigenous communities, lots of competing interests. How are you going to determine who you're going to fund? When will that funding stream become open for communities to apply for it?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

To be clear, it's not an application base. I was really personally insistent on that, as the minister.

An application base usually gives preferences to communities that have good grant writers and the ability to apply for grants. In fact, the Auditor General spoke about this in relation to access to housing money. We're trying to think through how we ensure that people get the money, regardless of their capacity to write a grant, quite frankly.

This money will be sent out on April 1, as my colleague said, to regional governance, local governance—people who are actually delivering health care or working with partners to deliver health care. After that is sent out, we can certainly send a list.

I would just conclude by saying, Marcus, that it is really designed in a flexible way so that first nations can use it in whatever way they want. I have seen some really interesting things that are about bridging the gap between western and indigenous medicine.

In Manitoba, for example, we've funded, in previous types of program funding, health ombudsmen, so that actually if an indigenous person is not getting the care they need in downtown Winnipeg—this might interest you, MP Carr, because it's in your neck of the woods—the health ombudsman, through the Manitoba chiefs council, is able to take those concerns from the individual and then act as an advocate for that individual within the Manitoba health care system. It's something I'm hoping that we'll be able to work more closely on with that province, with the election of its first first nations premier.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you. We're out of time on that one.

I should have mentioned that we're a pretty collegial group here. The members try to get as many questions out as they can. When you have the floor, I'd say you should get your question out. We also want to make sure that the minister and her team have time to respond.

We'll have a nice discussion as we go through this afternoon. I'll direct that to all members, just so we have a good conversation today.

With that, Monsieur Lemire, the floor is yours now for six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Minister.

Housing is one area that the supplementary estimates do not address, despite the dire housing needs. Meeting those needs would require an investment of $8 billion in Quebec and an investment of $34 billion in Canada.

In an effort to see the glass as half full, I want to recognize the hard work and contribution of first nations and Inuit communities, especially in Quebec. Quebec is the province doing the best job, having prioritized capacity building in indigenous communities. I asked the Auditor General about it. She wasn't very familiar with the ecosystem in Quebec, but she did note that Quebec was making more progress than other provinces.

Indigenous financial institutions that belong to the National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association, or NACCA—one being the Native Commercial Credit Corporation, in Wendake—are important because their contribution to capacity building is essential. These institutions submitted a request for better long-term funding as part of the pre-budget consultation process. Their contribution agreements are expiring on March 31, 2024, so very soon. One of the things they are asking for is $150 million so they can issue new housing loans.

Indigenous communities are worried because the government hasn't announced any such funding, and they need predictability. The Yänonhchia’ initiative is a social innovator designed by and for indigenous peoples to strengthen the housing network and indigenous-led financing.

Will you commit to pressing your colleague, the Minister of Finance, to act on the funding requests of indigenous financial institutions?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The Minister of Finance and I work on that issue every day.

I have met with Chief Lance Haymond recently. For example, you raised the issue of mortgages and how we can actually finance mortgages in first nations. I think the Minister of Finance is very interested in that idea.

We'll continue to pursue those innovative ideas that are coming from indigenous people. That's what's so great about this. I think the days of Canada telling indigenous people how to solve these problems is over. We've obviously not been able to dictate to first nations exactly what the solutions are. We're very excited when Chief Haymond and others come forward to talk about different ownership structures that could work within the context of a first nation.

Thank you.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Meegwetch.

Thank you for recognizing the contribution of Chief Haymond, chief of the Kebaowek First Nation, which is in my riding, in Témiscamingue. Obviously, these issues are not limited by boundary lines, so I think it's important to show trust given the situation.

Building on their desire to take control of the housing situation, first nations in Quebec have developed innovative tools, including the indigenous finance network Yänonhchia’, which means “home” in Huron-Wendat. The term stresses the organic connection between family space, community life and territory. It suggests personal responsibility for shelter, communal responsibility to ensure that no one is left behind, and sustainable use of land and resources. This network was developed in and supported by Quebec.

I appreciate your answer, but the outcome is clearly what matters in a situation like this.

Switching topics, I'd like to know whether you've had a chance to see the Auditor General's comments and criticism regarding the department's rather passive response. According to her, the department's approach is completely outdated.

What do you say to the Auditor General? Will you be announcing an overhaul of Indigenous Service Canada's practices and policies in light of her findings?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

There are two things.

One, from what I see every single day, I would say that I'm not sure that saying it's a passive response as a department is accurate. I would say that the department works with the physical resources it has. In fact, it's been very ambitious about getting any extra dollars out the door. Oftentimes, when dollars are about to lapse for housing because projects haven't been built or are not under way, the department will come to me and ask to reprioritize that money to communities that can use that money. We're very cautious and careful to not let any money lapse, because we need that money because there is such a great need across the country. I haven't seen that in housing at all.

I think you're talking about the part of the Auditor General's report that talks about vulnerable communities and how far away sometimes vulnerable communities are from being able to access housing. In that case, we have a number of different first nations-led agencies that will help communities to gain the governance and fiscal skills that they need to be able to move forward more quickly. I know that the department works with those communities as well and can provide a lot of support to those communities and certainly connect them to these indigenous-led institutions so that they have greater capacity.

I will say, before anyone says that this is in any way undermining the skills and talent of indigenous peoples, that communities are often under a huge degree of stress. Most chiefs I know are not just elected officials like us; they are also responding to—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry; I'm going to have to interrupt briefly.

There are bells again. I'm going to check with the committee to see if we have unanimous consent to proceed through the bells.

Do people want to go upstairs to vote, or do you want to vote remotely?

I see that we'll keep going and make sure to let you know when the vote happens.

There are 20 seconds left on the clock, Ms. Hajdu.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think it's important to understand that for those communities that have a deep state of distress, those chiefs are some of the hardest-working people I've ever met. They are literally—literally—putting out fires. They are answering calls at all times, day and night.

Our job as a government and as a country is to support those chiefs as they begin to stabilize their communities. We work with those fragile communities to ensure that they have the support they need.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I want to let the committee know that I will be moving a motion to invite the Auditor General to appear. With so many issues tied to the government's relationship with first nations, I think it's very important for committee members to hear what Ms. Hogan has to say.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We're going to go now to Ms. Ashton.

When you're ready, Ms. Ashton, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much.

Madam Minister, over the next two years, Indigenous Services Canada plans on sunsetting funding streams and cutting spending on programs like Jordan's principle, programs that deal with the harmful legacy of residential schools and support for mental health.

Indigenous Services Canada plans on half a billion dollars of cuts in the next four years. While the department has reassured indigenous communities and leaders that these massive cuts won't affect services, we have never seen in our history, and certainly not in recent history, a proposed cut and the sunsetting of this much money.

We know that the elimination of these critical programs will be devastating for communities that already rely on them, and they need all the support they can get. At a time when the need is so great, why is your government choosing to cut funding rather than invest in first nations?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much.

As I've said publicly and repeatedly, this government is not cutting services and is not reducing any spending initiatives that would impact service delivery to indigenous communities. The reductions you see in our departmental plan are related to internal operating efficiencies and some program funding that's not being utilized—specifically, the new fiscal agreement money that has not had the uptake we had hoped. We can certainly go back to it if we see a greater uptake.

The premise of your question is incorrect. In fact, the programs you reference are ongoing. We have a legal commitment to Jordan’s principle, for example, and this government has every intent to uphold it.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Okay. I think we'll have to agree to disagree, because the sunsetting of these kinds of investments is not seen as good news for anybody on the ground.

Let's move to housing. If you asked me to describe one of the government's biggest failures when it comes to indigenous communities, it would be on housing. I think the Auditor General's report certainly proves that. We heard yesterday that since the Liberals took over in 2015, there's been “no meaningful improvement” in housing on reserve and that it's highly unlikely that your government will meet its 2030 targets.

I see the housing crisis in community after community here in northern Manitoba. First nations like Shamattawa, Poplar Hill, Garden Hill and Pukatawagan are clear that they face a housing crisis. We heard a number of shocking statements in the report from the Auditor General yesterday. She highlighted that since 2015, ISC has spent less than 7% of what's needed to end the housing gap on reserve.

How do you justify this lack of action of first nations living in overcrowded, mouldy and inhumane conditions?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much for the question.

I'll first say that no one should justify anyone living in those conditions. As I said in my media response yesterday at the press conference, I seriously hope that Canadians have the same fervour for housing as they have had for water. I certainly think that every government—this one and into the future—needs to remain focused on alleviating the ongoing gap for indigenous peoples, including in housing.

I will say, as I said in my response to one of your colleagues here in the room, that the deficit in housing and infrastructure is one of the most frequent things I speak about with first nations chiefs across the country. That is why this government remains committed to closing that gap.

You're right that the 2030 gap is ambitious. We know that the federal government has to work with partners to be able to close that gap. We are certainly making the investments, with an 1,100% increase in the funding of housing since 2015 and the creation of 34,000 homes. That's nothing to sneeze at, especially when you compare it with the previous government's abysmal performance in this space.

I will say that those investments must be sustained. In order to build from where we are now—we're in a space where we're not seeing increased overcrowding but are starting to see communities level off and are starting to have positive feedback from first nations that are controlling and designing their own solutions to ongoing housing challenges—we have to continue to accelerate that gain. We do that by continued investment.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Climate change, as you know, is hitting indigenous communities hardest. In our region, this is evident in many ways. One of the most evident is the way in which ice roads have become increasingly unreliable. For isolated first nations, this is a matter of life and death. First nations in our region are clear: There needs to be a revival of the east side road authority initiative, and federal investment is required.

Is your government prepared to support the call for all-weather road infrastructure, including an airport for Wasagamack First Nation; investment in the road being proposed between St. Theresa Point and Berens River; and a northern route to service first nations like Oxford House, Garden Hill and first nations in between?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much.

In terms of the Wasagamack airport, you would know, MP Ashton, that I have been working with the Minister of Transport on this and have shared with him your advocacy. I want to thank you for that, because you're absolutely right: We have been extremely worried about the state of ice roads this year. It has a massive impact, as you've pointed out, on everything, including the cost of building housing. Infrastructure development in remote communities depends on materials and equipment being shipped up during ice road season. Those seasons are getting shorter and shorter.

We will continue to do whatever it takes to make sure that essential resources are shipped, but I think this calls for a larger conversation amongst multiple departments and provincial and territorial partners. I think we are facing down a very immediate crisis related to climate change.

I'm glad you started with climate change. It is a pleasure to work with a party that acknowledges that climate change is real and is having extraordinary fiscal impacts on first nations, including the inability to get goods and equipment up to communities in a cost-effective way.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time on that round.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Okay, thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We'll go to our slightly shorter rounds now.

I want to check with everybody. We're just under 22 minutes away from the vote. Are people comfortable or okay to vote remotely?