Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 20th, 2024

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Okay. Thank you very much.

In this limited time, I'd like to ask you about another Auditor General's report around policing, Minister.

In 2022, the government said they were going to work around the clock to get some legislation on the table to support indigenous policing services. Of course, it's two years later, and there are three policing services in northern Ontario that will soon be without an agreement.

Unfortunately, this is putting the lives of first nations people at risk, as you know, in our region, Minister. It's not just the policing itself, but sometimes ambulance services or other emergency services aren't able to do their jobs because of the lack of policing. Why is it that your government is dragging its feet on this very important issue?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I will say that we do a complementary line of business, if you will, with indigenous communities, called “Pathways to Safe Indigenous Communities”, and there is a self-determined ability for first nations to increase programs, interventions and services for community safety and well-being.

However, you will have to ask my colleague, Minister LeBlanc, questions about the work he is doing on developing indigenous policing legislation. That is work that I know is very important and dear to this government's heart.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Again, Minister, you say it's very important, but two years ago it was promised that it would be right around the corner and that the government would be working around the clock to get it done. With respect, that doesn't seem to add up to what we're hearing from you here today.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Well, I will say this: Oftentimes the government has a timeline that is ambitious, but we also work in a respectful way and in full consultation with partners. I look forward to the results of Minister LeBlanc's consultations with indigenous partners, because those will help us ensure that the resulting legislation will truly meet the needs of first nations people.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I'd like to get in one more question pertaining to the Federal Economic Development Agency for Northern Ontario, for which, of course, you are the minister responsible.

The service standards for providing responses to applications have not been met for the northern Ontario development program and the regional economic growth through innovation program, according to the most recent information.

You have said that addressing this issue is important to you. Can you explain why the department is failing to meet those service standards?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Colleagues, I just want to say that the voting period has now started. We're 15 seconds into it.

Minister, if you'd like to offer a brief response, we'll then suspend and vote and then come back in.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I would just say that this is incorrect information and that the service standards have been met within a large portion of the target.

I'm not sure if President Gideon is here. The department works really closely, though, with applicants who haven't fully fleshed out their applications yet. In those cases, those applications can take longer because they are not complete. The department works with those applicants to ensure they have a successful return. However, with applications that are complete and submitted for a decision, those decisions are, by and large, returned on time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're a bit over time there. Colleagues, I'm going to suspend.

When I get confirmation that everybody has voted, we'll come back. The last five minutes will go to the Liberals, and then we'll end this session and switch panels and send our first guests on their way.

For the moment, we're suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I call the meeting back to order.

We're going to finish off now with one last five-minute question.

Is Mr. Carr going to take that, or is it Mr. Battiste?

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I have two questions.

First, Minister, I would like to get an update. We've often heard at this committee that the Indian Act continues to discriminate around the second-generation cut-off, as well as when first nations mothers have children and don't declare the father as indigenous, because then it is automatically presumed that the child is not a status Indian. I know our government is taking steps to remedy that. I'm wondering if you could give us a progress update on where we are in addressing the racism that still remains in the Indian Act.

Next, regarding the housing progress we've made, I know the Auditor General has come out with a report, but I also know we've significantly increased the number of houses that are going to indigenous communities. I'm wondering if you could give us the numbers and an update so that we can get a full picture of what our government's response has been to indigenous housing.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, MP Battiste, and thank you for being with me when we announced the beginning of the consultation process for the second-generation cut-off.

For members who are unaware of this issue, this is something deeply personal for many indigenous people who, for one reason or another, have lost status, and therefore their children lose status. Those consultations are being designed with indigenous people, so they are of the utmost sensitivity, and there are a lot of opinions. There are people who feel very strongly that we need to move quickly on the second-generation cut-off. I think some communities have other perspectives. They have seen people return to the community and they wonder how they're going to absorb new members, for a whole host of reasons.

Those consultations are going to be very important, I think, in order to hear all sides and come up with a path that keeps people very comfortable with the direction.

You're right. The ongoing gender discrimination in the Indian Act is something we've been working to fix since 2015. Bill C-38 is now working its way through the House, as I understand it. We'll have debate, I believe, later this week on Bill C-38. I look forward to all members supporting that legislation and not delaying it, because families are waiting for answers.

Thank you for bringing that up.

On indigenous-led housing, I will note an article recently out of Nova Scotia. Membertou First Nation is building a record number of new homes, but all of its local contractors are too busy for more. I think a very important acknowledgement is that it's not only money that is the limiting factor for building more houses: I spoke about ice roads and the delay and interruption in getting materials to first nations communities. Skilled tradespeople shortages and a number of other things can delay infrastructure development in communities.

Sometimes it can even be related to climate change. If a community is evacuated in the middle of infrastructure season, it can upend the entire season. Communities will lose a season and the progress they've made. It can be very expensive when communities lose that progress because, of course, a half-built housing complex left to the elements means the build, in many cases, can't be salvaged.

I know we have a long way to go, but I will say that under this approach, we are looking at much faster progress.

I want to turn to Nelson to talk about how we supported even quantifying the gap.

[Nelson Barbosa, Director General, Regional Operations, Department of Indigenous Services]

Thanks for the question.

I want to acknowledge two things.

One, success isn't just measured in bricks and mortar. There have been $2.3 billion dollars spent since 2015 in housing specifically, with another $2 billion to follow. Twenty thousand projects are under way or will be completed by 2025.

Two, partnership is also essential. I want to acknowledge and highlight the partnership and co-development with the Assembly of First Nations on the first nations national housing and related infrastructure strategy. This was led by the Assembly of First Nations, but Indigenous Services Canada worked with all first nations in 2022 to quantify the infrastructure gap. The infrastructure gap that was cited by the Auditor General is work that came from first nations. It's important to understand those needs, but it's also important to understand the partnership required to close the gap. The gap is substantial. We're seeing success, but success needs to follow the partnership model this department believes so strongly in.

I want to thank you for your question. I'm pleased to acknowledge the work we have done, but I also want to lift up the success of first nations in supporting infrastructure in their communities.

Thank you.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I don't think I have many seconds left, so that's it. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

All right, thank you, Minister and your team, for being here today. I apologize for the disruptions from the votes, but that's the nature of the business here.

With that, colleagues, we will suspend and bring in the second panel. Ms. Ashton, stand by, and we'll get going again as soon as we get everybody seated here.

For the moment, we're suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I call the meeting back to order.

I now would like to welcome our second panel. For the second hour, we're going to continue our discussion of the subject matter of the supplementary estimates (C) 2023-24.

We have with us ministers Gary Anandasangaree, Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, and the Honourable Dan Vandal, Minister of Northern Affairs.

From the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, I would like to welcome Valerie Gideon, deputy minister, and Martin Reiher, senior assistant deputy minister, treaties and aboriginal government.

We've spent a lot of time with you over the past while. Welcome back.

We also have with us Garima Dwivedi, assistant deputy minister, resolution and partnerships; Georgina Lloyd, assistant deputy minister, northern affairs; Krista Apse, director general, missing and murdered indigenous women and girls secretariat; and Darlene Bess, chief finances, results and delivery officer.

I apologize if I messed up anybody's name.

We'll go through a couple of rounds of questions and see where we're at, but I believe that first of all we have opening statements from both ministers. I'm not sure who is going first, but whenever you're ready, either Minister Vandal or Minister Anandasangaree, the floor will be yours for five minutes.

Minister Vandal, it looks like you're ready. The floor is yours.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Minister of Northern Affairs]

Hello, everybody.

Tansi. Hadlookut. Kwe kwe.

I'm very happy to be here today to discuss and answer your questions on the 2023-24 supplementary estimates for the northern affairs.

The estimates reflect a net increase of $9 million for northern affairs. This increase in funding was used to address urgent capacity requirements for indigenous organizations in the Northwest Territories due to wildfires and to reimburse expenses incurred to support their members during the wildfire emergency.

Northern and indigenous communities are experiencing some of the worst impacts of climate change. We are working with northern and indigenous partners to mitigate those impacts, while helping communities reduce their reliance on expensive diesel thanks to new community-managed renewable power.

Indigenous-owned solar and wind projects are leading the way in the clean energy transition, with active support and investment from the federal government. In 2023, the Government of Northwest Territories reported that residents, communities and territorial government saved more than $12 million in energy costs because of clean energy projects like these right across the north.

Partnerships and collaboration are a vital piece to strengthening food security in northern and Arctic communities. Since 2021, we have expanded the Nutrition North program and have implemented 90% of the recommendations from this committee's report, “Food Security in Northern and Isolated Communities”. This is a significant step, and I want to thank all members, past and present, for their work and their continued collaboration on addressing this complex issue.

Engagement with communities and program partners led to the launch of food sovereignty programs like the community food programs and the harvester support grants. Internally, we reallocated an additional $5 million to Nutrition North Canada through supplementary estimates (C) to support these initiatives, which helps to offset costs of food and other essential items, improve access to traditional country foods and support initiatives such as meals for elders and the school food programs.

There is certainly much more work that needs to be done, and I look forward to engaging on a local level with communities and program partners in the upcoming months to find new ways to address food insecurity in the north and strengthen these partnerships.

As a government, we have recognized the significant underfunding by past governments of all stripes when it comes to addressing housing and infrastructure gaps in the north. That's why we're working with northern and indigenous partners to increase access to safe, affordable housing and to build on historic distinctions-based investments that are supporting the housing priorities in the territories and in Inuit Nunangat.

On this note, I'd like to recognize and acknowledge the historic signing of the Nunavut devolution agreement, one of the largest land transfers in Canada's history, which supports Nunavummiut self-determination. We will keep working in partnership to complete the transfer of responsibilities by April 1, 2027.

The Arctic and Northern Policy Framework helps to ensure that northern lands are sustainably managed. Previous estimates have led to evidence-based decision-making on offshore oil and gas activity in the Arctic, to support responsible and sustainable resource development in the north and the Arctic. This has meant adhering to the strictest environmental safety standards.

We remain firm and steadfast in defending the Arctic and the people who live there. We are working with northern partners and communities to co-develop security strategies and we are making historic investments to increase our ability to defend the north.

Thank you for the opportunity to provide a summary of how the supplementary estimates will support the important work ahead to deliver on our shared priorities to build a strong, resilient future for the north and the Arctic.

Qujannamiik. Meegwetch. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you, Minister. That was right to the second. Well done.

Now we'll go to our second minister, Minister Anandasangaree.

Whenever you're ready, Minister, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations]

Kwe kwe. Ulaakut. Tansi. Hello. Bonjour.

Mr. Chair, thank you for the invitation to join you here on the unceded traditional territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin people. I want to note that I'm very glad to be back at this committee and to be able to speak to all of you here.

I'm joined here by the Honourable Dan Vandal, as well as the officials from CIRNAC you introduced earlier, including Valerie Gideon, our deputy minister.

Let me start with a few words about the journey of reconciliation we're on together with indigenous partners; with all of you on this committee, who advance this work each and every day; with Minister Vandal and Minister Hajdu; and with all of our colleagues in Parliament. It's an important journey toward taking a system that was set up to implement the Indian Act, to enforce the residential school system and ultimately to assimilate indigenous peoples and instead making that very system deliver results for indigenous peoples.

This is no easy task. It requires undoing hundreds of years of colonial history.

The year 2015 was a turning point in Crown-indigenous relations. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission handed us a road map to reconciliation through the 94 calls to action, and Canadians elected a government that pledged that its most important relationship was the one it had with indigenous peoples.

In keeping with the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, the former approach of making decisions on behalf of indigenous peoples has shifted dramatically and irrevocably to an approach centred on supporting the aspirations of indigenous people and communities or, in other words, indigenous self-determination.

Today we're in a new era of indigenous relations that is characterized by spending to resolve historical injustices and recognizing and supporting indigenous governments in advancing their goals, or, in other words, moving from the painful path we've come from and onto the road that lies ahead.

On the road ahead, I see hope. I see hope in the agreements that give indigenous peoples control over what they should always have had control over: their lands and waterways, their governments, their child welfare and education.

In places like the Nisga'a Nation territory, I've seen how modern treaties have the power to deliver real results. I see hope in the form of rights recognition.

Last month, with the Haida Nation, I was honoured to be in the Senate to witness the introduction of Bill S-16, recognizing the Council of the Haida Nation as the holder of their inherent rights of governance and self-determination.

There's a lot of work ahead, and it is clear to me that we cannot do the work without building a relationship based on trust. The road we come from is a bumpy one, and we have to make amends for that.

While I was in British Columbia recently, I visited the Matsqui First Nation. Their reserve lands were severed from them in 1908 by a railway, and they were never compensated.

Chief Alice McKay told me point blank that she does not like the word “reconciliation” because, as she said, there was no relationship to reconcile, but she also said that the settlement gave her hope for our relationship going forward.

The settlement of claims like these helps to build trust. Of the funding being requested through these estimates, 96% is for settlement agreements to right the wrongs of the past.

We know there's much work to do. Reconciliation is not a one-time event; it's a multi-generational journey. The calls to action are not something that can be checked off on a list; they require ongoing and sustained commitment and action.

There are real challenges ahead. We have to do more to put an end to the ongoing crisis of the missing and murdered, for example. More needs to be done in joint decision-making, like the Inuit-Crown partnership committee.

I have now said it many times: The road ahead is long. I'm thankful for the people here in this committee who are as committed to the journey as I am. Together, we will make sure that the long road ends in reconciliation.

Meegwetch, qujannamiik, merci and thank you.

I look forward to your questions and comments.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you, Minister.

Let's jump right into our first round of questions. I believe I have Mr. Zimmer up first for six minutes.

We'll start as soon as Mr. McLeod passes around some of his pizza.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ministers, for coming today.

There is an affordability crisis in the Northwest Territories. Here's a bill from Chris, a local resident in Yellowknife. One bill in January was $823.35. There's another bill he also received to top up that tank again in January for another $1128.88. That's a total of $1952.23 for one month, Minister, of which $199 is the carbon tax. That is set to go up on April 1, as you know.

The next person from Yellowknife is a person named Adam. He had to fill up his heating oil tank three times in January: once for $499, once for $1500 and once for $730 for a total of $3203.09. Again, that was just in January. The carbon tax alone was $319.47.

This is from Eric, also from Yellowknife. This is addressed to me: “Sir, in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories, I truly thank you for your efforts in the House to enlighten members to the challenges all northerners”—

These are your constituents as well; I live in northern B.C.

—“have in heating our homes and businesses. As you know, there are many regions that simply do not have heating alternatives. Fossil fuels, at least until new technologies offer cost-acceptable alternatives, are the only options we have at the moment. In addition to the add-ons of the carbon tax and the transportation of fuels to northern communities, the tax itself—along with the GST on top of that tax—is driving northern living costs well beyond reasonable financial tolerances, as I just laid out. I know you all know this, but as northerners it's difficult to understand how the current Liberal government is so out of touch with the realities of northern living costs. To suggest heat pumps are the answer, as the Liberals have suggested—fine for parts of eastern Canada, as they work in some parts of Canada—is beyond comprehension.

“Keep up the good work on behalf of all northerners, and Canadians, for that matter.

“Best regards, Eric”

Now we see that the new premier of the Northwest Territories is asking for an exemption because of these high costs to citizens of the Northwest Territories: “'I mean, ideally a complete exemption for the territory is what we would hope for,' said R.J. Simpson, chosen...premier of the Northwest Territories” just a few months ago, as you probably have heard.

As you know, the Northwest Territories previously gave its residents rebates, but your Ottawa-knows-best government stepped in and would no longer allow the Northwest Territories to offer rebates to its citizens.

Deputy Premier Wawzonek said, “When the federal government recently made the changes to exempt home heating oil, that didn’t automatically apply because what they’ve done is they’ve changed the goal post on us.”

When others were granted the temporary carbon tax exemption on home heating oil and other provinces wanted exemptions, your colleague Environment Minister Guilbeault said that there would be “no more exemptions” on his watch. This is from the CBC: “Environment Minister Steven Guilbeault said...he will not stand for any further adjustments to Canada's carbon-pricing system”. The article goes on to say, “'As long as I’m the environment minister, there will be no more exemptions to carbon pricing,' Guilbeault told The Canadian Press in an interview.”

My question to you, Minister, is quite simple: Will you support the people of the Northwest Territories and their government and exempt them from the carbon tax, or will you support your colleague Minister Guilbeault in his promise that “As long as I'm the environment minister, there will be no more exemptions to carbon pricing”?

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Thank you for asking a very thorough question of almost four minutes. I guess I'm going to get the rest of the time to answer it without being cut off.

I agree with you. There's a real affordability issue in the north and the Arctic. Unfortunately, it's not new, but we're doing our best to address it. That's one of the reasons—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

The question, Minister, isn't about what you're saying, though.

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

I will answer it, but give me some time. Don't interrupt me.

Mr. Chairperson—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

It's a very simple question: Do you support the people of Northwest Territories or do you support your colleague, the Minister of the Environment?