Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 20th, 2024

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Hi, Minister.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Hi, Mr. Carr.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

As you know, I spent a lot of time in my career as an educator. During my time as an educator, I had the privilege of working with a lot of indigenous students and their families in the northwest part of the city of Winnipeg, where I come from.

One of the things I noticed—in addition to so many of the challenges indigenous families still face as a result of intergenerational trauma born of residential schools, colonial policies and all the things we're well aware of—is that within the public education system specifically, because of a shortage of educational opportunities, we often see students having to leave their communities to come down to the big cities like Winnipeg, for example, where they are vulnerable. There's a bit of culture shock. There's susceptibility to gang influence. They are away from their families. There are all sorts of different challenges posed as a result of this. A lot of it has to do with provincial government jurisdiction over education, of course.

I was wondering if you could talk to us a bit more about the role of the federal government in supporting indigenous education across the country. Could you talk to us about some of the guidance or suggestions you might be hearing from indigenous leaders, specifically in relation to the education system in our country?

Thank you.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much for a sincere question. This is an area where, I think, our government has a lot to talk about, quite frankly.

Prior to the election of the federal Liberals, we saw discriminatory funding levels for indigenous education across this country, in board after board. What I mean by this is that the dollars spent per child, for lack of a better metric, were far lower in indigenous communities than in a similar provincial system. We fixed that because we know that the education of young people is one of the best things we can do to invest in our country and the success of each person. It has been a hallmark, I think, of our government: to ensure indigenous education systems across this country have funding equitable to what you could expect in provincial systems. We've in fact increased education by 80% since 2016. Again, that's a big number. It defines how big the gap was prior to our election in 2015.

Now, we're not just spending money to improve education systems; we are also building and renovating schools with first nations people, because many of the schools the children were learning in were, quite frankly, abysmal and left to rot by successive governments that didn't make those kinds of investments.

I've had an opportunity to visit schools. You can see bright, happy children and very content teachers in those facilities. They are teaching in ways that are going to help those young people reach their education potential.

The final thing I'll say is that we have been pursuing what we're calling, and what are called, “regional education agreements”, which restore indigenous sovereignty over how education is delivered in communities. In fact, in Quebec there was an amazing opportunity for me to be at the signing of one of these regional education agreements. The young people, educators, students and families were celebrating their ability to design their own curriculum in order to incorporate language, culture, tradition and healing into that curriculum. This will allow their children to have a fair shot at success, just like every other child in that province.

We have, since then, signed four regional education agreements, I think. We have a number under way. We are transforming education in this country, together with first nations, which are leading the way.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thanks, Minister.

I agree with you in terms of the quality of the relationship the federal government is enjoying with the new provincial government in Manitoba. There is an alignment of values and specifically an alignment of beliefs on achieving more progress on the road to truth and reconciliation.

I look forward to a continued conversation with you about some of the ways we can work together with the province to address such things as the teacher shortages that we're seeing on reserve communities in the north as well to address curriculum, which you spoke about. I'm very pleased to hear you substantiate some of the progress I know is being made, but there are all sorts of things we have to look at in terms of colonial practices that still exist for students in the public education system. Again, I understand it's a provincial jurisdiction, but in many instances, these are kids who come from first nation reserves end up in the provincial system, so the partnership between the federal government and the provincial government and local school boards is really critical to ensuring that we offer them the support they need.

I thank you for your ongoing work in this regard and I look forward to our continued work together.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you. We're out of time.

We'll now go to Mr. Lemire for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, you said in August 2023 that your department wouldn't cut spending and that services for first nations, Métis and Inuit would not be impacted. Nevertheless, Indigenous Services Canada's 2024-25 departmental plan clearly shows that service delivery will be greatly impacted by budget cuts or similar reductions.

The department is planning to spend about $20.7 billion on indigenous well-being and self-determination, in other words, all indigenous service areas, in 2024‑25 and about $16.3 billion in 2025‑26. That's a year-to-year reduction of 21.04% in expenditures directly related to service delivery. Spending on internal services will go from $282 million in 2024‑25 to $265 million in 2025‑26, a drop of some 6.2%.

The 2024‑25 departmental plan, specifically the message from you, the minister, at the beginning of the report, says that you want to close the infrastructure gap by 2030. That includes the education facility gap. However, the 2024‑25 departmental plan includes just under $146 million for education facilities, which is 10 times less than the estimated $12.6 billion needed to close the current gap. Just $3.9 million is going towards major renovations or construction of education facilities for first nations in Quebec.

Can you defend these spending cuts to essential services for first nations, Métis and Inuit communities? Eight months ago, you said reductions like these would not be made. How, then, do you explain the reductions in the department's forecast spending?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I have been clear that there won't be any reductions to service levels and that the initiative to refocus government spending will not impact service delivery to indigenous communities. The reductions you see in the departmental plan are related to internal operating efficiencies and any program funding that's not being utilized, such as funding that's no longer required from the fiscal framework.

I did mention the new fiscal relationship grant. Based on current and projected uptake, a portion of that funding won't be required from the fiscal framework at this point in time, amounting to $256.7 million over five years and $89.9 million in ongoing funding, but even with these cost savings, the new fiscal relationship grant escalator would remain fully funded. There will be no impact on the level of the escalator funding for current and future recipients, and so—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry; I was just going to say to wrap it up. We're out of time.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Yes. I'll just say again that this department is focused on making sure that it provides excellent service in an efficient way, and looking for efficiencies is an important part of the work that they do.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Now, Ms. Ashton, we'll go to you for your two and a half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

I'd like to get to the issue of nursing shortages.

We know that out of the 223 nurses that ISC says it needs, 43 positions are unfilled. On top of that, more than half of the nurse positions that are filled are filled by contract agencies that are providing only emergency care, rather than the primary care that first nations deserve and desperately need.

It's so bad that communities are posting notices about the lack of nurses in their communities. When I was in Wasagamack First Nation on February 20, in front of the store there was a notice that said, “The nursing station is closed due to nurse shortages starting the week of January 29 until further notice.”

Pimicikamak Cree Nation recently declared a state of emergency. Even though they're supposed to have 13 nurses, they had far fewer than that—four—and when they declared the state of emergency, they were committed another four, for eight, but still short of the 13 they deserve, given how large the first nation is and how large the community is.

We know that nurses have been clear about the stress and the burnout they face, and we know that communities are not getting the health care they deserve. In fact, I've joined with first nation leaders who have been very clear that this has had a devastating impact, including in cases of premature death.

This is an urgent situation. What is ISC doing to help first nations like Pimicikamak, like Wasagamack and like Little Grand Rapids, which either have declared states of emergency or have put forward these urgent notices? What is ISC doing to work with them to lift these states of emergency and ensure that there are enough nurses to serve first nations?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you, MP Ashton.

I would say that this is a crisis that's affecting Canada. In fact, nursing shortages are profound in pretty much every community across this country and even more profound in remote communities. That's why Indigenous Services Canada has been so focused on what we can do to recruit, retain and train nurses to choose to work in the north, to stay in the north, and to build that internal capacity of communities by ensuring that more indigenous people choose health care as a pathway for their own personal careers.

We have used things like retention strategies and we have increased investments to ensure competitive pay and signing bonuses. We have thrown pretty much everything at the wall to get nurses in place, and I will tell you that there's nothing more stressful for a community, as you pointed out, but certainly for my officials, because I see those messages that come through at two o'clock, three o'clock, five o'clock in the morning from communities where officials are working with communities like the ones you mentioned, just as in many northern and remote communities, to address these nursing shortages.

We're going to keep at it, obviously, and whatever it requires, we will be there to try to ensure that communities have the complement of nurses they need. Furthermore, we are investing in those kinds of innovations that communities are talking about to have greater capacity, with the $2-billion health equity fund, with the health transfers and with willing provinces and territories that are interested in partnering with first nations—

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Minister, if I could—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry. We're out of time on this one.

Colleagues, there are just over three minutes until the vote. We could suspend now or start Mr. Melillo's five minutes, if you're okay with being interrupted, Mr. Melillo.

I'll suspend the meeting while we vote. Once everybody has confirmed that they've voted, we'll resume and finish off the time that we have with the minister.

We started at 5:11. We'll try to wrap up as close to 6:11as we can, less the suspension.

Mr. Melillo, would you like to start? When you're ready, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

I'd like to pick up on the Auditor General's report around housing that was mentioned earlier.

Of course, it notes that your government supposedly has committed to closing the gap on housing in first nations by 2030, but the Auditor General has found that the department has no plan to do that and that the number of homes that need to be replaced due to deteriorating conditions has actually increased since your government came into office. The report has also found that many of the nations most in need are not getting proper funding and in fact are getting less funding.

How would you explain that disparity?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you, and thank you for asking the question, because I think the more we talk about indigenous access to housing in first nations, the better off this country will be. It's like water: We need Canadians to understand that this is of utmost priority to all of us.

I've answered this question before. First of all, the department does work very closely with communities to make sure that we understand their current needs, their ongoing needs and their—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

With respect, Minister, the Auditor General said that the department has no plan to reach the 2030 goal that you've set.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I am saying that the department works regularly and consistently with first nations on the planning that they're undertaking to close those gaps, and we continue to have—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Do you accept the Auditor General's report?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

We accept all recommendations. I will be clear.

The Auditor General has made good recommendations, including focusing the work to make sure that the most vulnerable communities get the care they need, which was part two of your question.

However, I will also say that what I have certainly learned over the last two and half years—and I know the department knows very well—is that we must do this with indigenous partners. We cannot do it to communities—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Yes, absolutely—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

We must ensure that indigenous communities have the authority and autonomy to—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Just on that, Minister, the Auditor General's report has also stated that your department is not working closely with first nations to address this housing gap.

Again, we're hearing one thing here, but the Auditor General's report, which you have said you accept—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I don't think she said that we weren't working closely with first nations. I think what she said was that some first nations that are particularly vulnerable are having a hard time accessing the housing they need.

That is certainly something that keeps me up at night. I know the department is working very closely with those communities to determine how we can better accelerate building housing and other infrastructure in those very vulnerable communities.