Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 29th, 2024

[Karen Hogan]

Their perspective is that a first nations community should determine its needs and then apply for funding. While I'm a hundred per cent in agreement that a first nations community needs to identify its needs, the current approaches are barriers to access, and there is inequitable funding going to communities that need it the most.

The parting comment I would give you is on the importance of data. If we looked at programs that the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation was running, they were using outdated census information that didn't reflect 20 years of demographic changes to first nations communities. Even when there is a drive to make sure there is more equitable access, if you're using bad data, then decisions won't be well informed.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I think Ms. Idlout gave her two minutes to me. Didn't she? That's what I heard.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I think Ms. Idlout was trying to bank those for her next go-around.

We're going now to Mr. Carr, who will have five minutes.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hogan.

Just to pick up on the last point, could you expand for us a bit on the piece around demographic changes that you referenced? What were some of those changes? I come from Manitoba, as you may know. If you happen to have it available, I'd be curious to understand specifically in the Manitoba context what some of those demographic changes were.

[Karen Hogan]

I would encourage members to look at exhibit 2.5 in our report. This is an area where we looked at the programs through which the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation receives funding to deliver. We found that they allocated funding to regional offices and that the formula for that allocation used outdated census information. They used 2001 census information when they could have been using the most updated census from 20 years later. The demographic changes over those two decades weren't reflected.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I appreciate that; however, my question isn't on the failure to recognize that. My question is what the demographic changes were.

[Karen Hogan]

I think Statistics Canada would give you a better outlay of what they were. It could be population growth, population moving or the need for more housing. The census even points out that indigenous people are four times more likely to live in overcrowded housing, so there would be the need to have more housing, simply. All of that demographic information isn't reflected when you're using census information from 20 years ago.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm happy to follow up with Stats Canada, as you suggest. However, is there any information to show the movement of indigenous people from reserve communities in Manitoba to Winnipeg, for example?

Having been a teacher and an administrator, I know that a big problem in Manitoba is that we don't have enough schools in communities. What ends up happening is that young people leave the community. Sometimes they come back and sometimes they don't. I'm just curious as to how that might play a role. However, I appreciate the point that Stats Canada is probably better positioned—

[Karen Hogan]

I unfortunately don't have that kind of layer of demographics.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

That's fair enough.

Can you elaborate a bit on some of the biggest issues in the homes that are not meeting the standard of quality that they have to? You've talked about mould. I'm wondering if there are other impacts that we're starting to see.

For example, in northern Manitoba, flooding is always a problem. You can look at what's happening with Peguis First Nation right now and have a conversation about some of the hardships they've faced. Are things like climate change, for example, starting to impact the quality of care that is needed for homes, whether in my province of Manitoba or across the country?

[Karen Hogan]

I would point to the two assessments that the Assembly of First Nations did around quantifying what it would take to close the housing gap for first nations communities. I mentioned 2021, which has the numbers we refer to, the $44 billion. When we look at the most recent assessment done by the Assembly of First Nations linking just to housing, we see that the need has almost tripled. We asked them why it would change so dramatically, and some of the reasons given were the demographic and population shift and the effects of climate on housing. Then there's the need to recognize that you need to build climate-resilient homes now, whether it's because of the melting of permafrost or from natural disasters. There's just a difference needed in the construction and the build, which I think is really important. Some of our findings around building codes and making sure that minimum standards are being met are important. They ensure that a house starts off on the right leg and that it's at least built sturdily.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Is there any data on that specifically? You may point me to somebody else, but I'd be curious to know. You talked about in the report, and it makes sense to me, that between 2018 and 2023, there was a substantial 60% increase in build costs. I imagine a lot of that accounts for the 2021 to 2023 period, which, of course, was the pandemic, with the supply chain disruptions and all the things that drove up costs.

How much of that, from what you understand, would be driven by the point you just raised, which is that when we're building a new home, it's very different from a home that would have been built in the 1940s or 1950s? We're taking into account these climate resiliency pieces. Do we have an understanding of where some of the major costs are for the materials that are needed?

I note, for example, a shortage of workers. I finished looking at a CBC article from Membertou, Nova Scotia, not long ago that says there is funding available, but part of the problem is that they don't have the ability, even once they've tapped members of their own community, to fulfill the labour needs. Can you just shed some light?

John, am I out of time?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

You're out of time, but I'll allow a brief response.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

You have to move those folders, because the tables are so far now that the peripheral doesn't hit them.

[Karen Hogan]

I definitely see the folders going up.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

You can raise your hand for me.

Anyway, answer very quickly, if you don't mind, Ms. Hogan.

[Karen Hogan]

I wish I had a better answer, but I don't. I think you're raising some really important factors. The cost of building materials is another reason the values have gone up, as is the ability of skilled workers to do the builds. There's also the short building season in many of the communities we're talking about, as well as the remoteness and getting things there. There are many factors, so we couldn't target one element as being a larger contributor over another.

When you do have the departments here, I would encourage you to ask them about some of the creative new builds they are looking at. When I was at the public accounts committee, they talked about non-traditional builds that they're trying to do in first nations communities. That might be an area that interests you when the departments appear.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Now we'll go to Mr. Lemire for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Hogan, one of your recommendations states that ISC, in collaboration with first nations, “should finalize the overarching policy framework for the transfer of departmental responsibilities to first nations to ensure that a consistent approach is applied to the transfer”. I'd like to have your observations on how to achieve that.

We're seeing the emergence of an indigenous housing capital network, such as the Yänonhchia' project, a social innovation designed by and for indigenous peoples. We also recognize initiatives such as the national aboriginal capital corporations association, or NACCA, of which the native commercial credit corporation, or NCCC, is a member. The latter is managed from Wendake, Quebec. These corporations want to use investment funds or expertise management funds, including for the architecture and construction of models that can be reproduced in a number of indigenous communities.

In your opinion, could that be part of an effective and sustainable solution to promote the construction of the greatest number of housing units possible to alleviate the shortage, which is especially egregious in indigenous communities?

[Karen Hogan]

I wouldn't want to discourage the exploration of innovative approaches to funding housing in communities. It's clear that a partnership between indigenous communities, the private sector and the various levels of government is essential, because the needs are great.

That said, ISC has the mandate to transfer all its responsibilities to first nations communities. That's part of its mission. Within the framework of our audit, however, we noted that the department had undertaken some housing-related measures but lacked a cohesive plan to facilitate the transfer.

The transfer of responsibilities isn't limited solely to the provision of funding or programs. It's essential to ensure that communities will be successful, and that requires significant support each year the transfer is made. At present, we don't see any plan for managing all that.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you very much. Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We will now go to Ms. Idlout, who will have two and a half minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the Auditor General, Ms. Karen Hogan. I'm very much appreciating all your frank responses.

I'm going to turn to your recommendation 6.48 from 2003, which says, “Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, and Health Canada, in consultation with First Nations, should develop a comprehensive strategy and action plan to address the problem of mould on reserves.”

I note that there have been interesting responses from Indigenous Services Canada, from the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and from Health Canada, but these responses, to me, seem quite minimal. As the Auditor General, what would you expect a comprehensive response to be to make sure that, for example, mould contamination is being addressed, since you said that it is a significant problem? What kind of response would be a lot more appropriate in order to make sure that mould contamination is actually being addressed?

[Karen Hogan]

I would see a response linked to mould having a few elements. One is recognizing the need to understand the magnitude of the problem, which means being able to collect from all communities what they may see as their concerns around mould, how many housing units in their community have mould and which are priorities versus others. Our audit has shown that the needs are far greater than the funding currently available, so you need to prioritize that limited funding to those most in need, especially when it comes to a very serious health hazard.

I believe you need to have information. As I mentioned earlier in another response, one of the regional offices in Alberta was gathering information and they stopped gathering it. The reason they gave us was to eliminate the reporting burden on first nations communities, but then you're not making well-informed decisions.

It needs to start with data. That would be the first step of a good comprehensive plan. Then you need a plan that you're going to stick with and implement. There is a mould strategy plan that, as a previous member mentioned, was developed many years ago in consultation with first nations communities, Indigenous Services Canada and CMHC, but it's no longer being used and no one knows why.

Have a plan to know how to tackle the problem once you've identified it, and then figure out how to fund it and systematically go after it, keeping in mind that you should try to go get to those most in need first and bring them forward.