Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 22nd, 2024

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The process of the list that the Indigenous Services Canada department maintains is that the Indigenous Services Canada department determines indigeneity and provides that information to other departments of Canada that are looking to procure to meet that 5% target of procurement, all with the goal of ensuring that we can foster economic reconciliation.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

However, you're failing, Minister. Indigenous communities have repeatedly told you that the process is flawed. You, as Minister of Indigenous Services, have an absolute responsibility...that money is actually flowing to indigenous contractors. You don't have a process. You're not conducting any audits.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I disagree with the allegation that the department doesn't have a process, and I also disagree with the allegation that all partners are disappointed. In fact, I work closely with many experts—indigenous experts in economic reconciliation—and we are actively working with partners on a pathway to transition the list to indigenous partners in a way that makes sense to them and that supports their goal of economic prosperity for their communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's the end of our time for this one.

I go now to Mr. McLeod online.

Mr. McLeod, I'll jump in when your six minutes is up. It's over to you.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us.

First of all, I want to put out an invitation to the minister to come and visit us here in Northwest Territories. I think you would be shocked to see the level of disasters that are happening right across Northwest Territories, and I imagine that for the rest of the north it's the same. We're experiencing extreme drought conditions.

I live on the bank of the Mackenzie River, and it's getting to a point where we can just about walk across the Mackenzie. It used to be referred to as the mighty Mackenzie, and it's a shame that the climate crisis is causing the river to possibly dry up. This is only May, and there's no water. I'm assuming it's part of what's going on in B.C. and Alberta, but it's causing a lot of problems.

As you know, the wildfires that burned across the country last summer were devastating to many of our indigenous communities. Here in Northwest Territories, we evacuated almost 80% of our population.

I'd like you to talk a little bit about how your department assisted indigenous communities to recover from last year's wildfire season and how you're working with communities to prepare for the 2024 season, because the fires have already started here, and we're only in May. I'm scared to imagine what it's going to be like in July. Perhaps you could just speak about wildfires, how our government helped the situation last year and how you're helping to prepare for this year.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, MP McLeod.

I'll never forget the calls with Chief April of K’atł'odeeche last year in the middle of the wildfire that so devastated Northwest Territories. In fact, it's a sad reality of my job that in the summer I repeatedly make phone calls to first nations leaders across the country, who are in the most untenable situations and who sometimes, obviously, have to evacuate an entire community, with everything that means. I think until you've actually listened to a chief or met first-hand with community members who are being evacuated, you don't have a full understanding of just how disruptive, scary and difficult that is for families, and sometimes people are out for a very long time.

The 2023 wildfire season forced almost 30,000 first nations people to evacuate. That was almost three times the number of people who had to evacuate the year before. Not only is it devastating emotionally and devastating to the infrastructure if in fact communities do experience loss, but it's also extremely expensive, not just in terms of the wildfire response but also in terms of the rebuilding that, in many cases, can be very difficult to pursue. We've heard about the hurdles to getting infrastructure built in Lytton and communities in that area in B.C. Many times, forests have been decimated. Every chief I speak to, especially in the west, is very frightened about what the future holds and is very concerned about a climate that increasingly means evacuating not just once every 10 years but now once every year. I spoke to a chief from Alberta today, the chief of the Doig River First Nation, who said that this is the second year in a row his community has been evacuated.

We've been doing a number of things to help communities prepare. One is to support the collaboration between provincial response, federal response and community response. It has to be all hands on deck. We do that by convening tables to provide communities better capacity to do their own emergency response planning. Being prepared in advance is a huge advantage, as is having money in advance. Over the last number of years, that's something we've been able to change. We've provided advance payments to communities so they're not scrambling and desperate to find the actual cash to be able to do this work.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Minister, can I interrupt you?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Yes, you can. I'm sorry.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I really wanted you to talk about one issue that's really plaguing us, which is insurance. We have 27 indigenous public communities here in the north. They're not reserves. The cost of insurance has become ridiculous. I even heard the other day that somebody was quoted $18,000 by an insurance company for fire insurance. Anybody who needs insurance is cancelling their insurance because they can't afford it.

I'm wondering if you, as a minister, are talking with your colleagues in cabinet about the possibility of creating a public-private home insurance program, not necessarily specific to indigenous people, but for people who just can't afford—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Mr. McLeod, we're out of time, but I'll allow the minister a very brief answer.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Really quickly, of course, the government's looking at how we can address all of these compounding problems related to climate change. What's not helpful is having members of Parliament who are essentially denying that climate change is real, because it is hitting the pocketbooks of every Canadian in this country, whether through excessively priced insurance in flood zones or fire zones, or the many other ways it's impacting Canadians.

We all need to be on board, preparing for what is going to be an undoubtedly difficult fire season this year and in years to come.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We're going to go now to Monsieur Lemire, who will have six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I would like to offer my condolences to the loved ones, family and friends of Alexandre McKenzie, an extremely dedicated member of the north shore Innu community who was recognized for his cultural, linguistic and historical contribution to the community. I offer them my condolences.

Madam Minister, I would like to hear what you have to say about the process of realigning government spending. A change has been made in the formulas in order to reduce grants that support child and family services coordination agreements and related fiscal arrangements by $120 million.

How does your department determine the amounts needed for indigenous communities to develop their own child and family services legislation, systems and programs in preparation for coordination agreement discussions?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Good question.

We work with communities to adopt a fair and realistic approach to ensure the best chance of success for every family and child.

It's really important that we don't impose a fiscal approach on communities, but rather that we work with communities and with the province or territory to figure out how to best support the community in that transition.

What we don't want to see is communities taking on the responsibility without sufficient resources, and that's why those are negotiated agreements with communities.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

In this case, we're talking about requests for around $311 million. The 2023‑24 main estimates contain $431.1 million in spending for this file.

I'd be curious to know which formula and basis were used to calculate the amounts allocated to the various coordination agreements. Could you send us this information in writing?

These types of budget cuts certainly don't address all the needs in communities.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It might be difficult to provide a formula in writing, because it is dependent on the size of the community, the needs of the community and their specific desires. Some communities want to do more than other communities. Some communities want to work with provinces more than others.

I will also say that sometimes, the amount of money that is received in the budget is related to the upcoming coordination agreements that we know are ready to be signed in the very near future.

Catherine, do you want to speak to this just a little more?

[Catherine Lappe, Assistant Deputy Minister, Child and Family Services Reform, Department of Indigenous Services]

Yes, certainly.

Yes, as the minister said, it depends on the circumstances of each community. We're negotiating the amount with each community and with the province in question.

There were no cuts. As the minister said, we have several agreements that receive, or have received, funding from previous years' budgets. There are currently seven agreements in place. The announcements in this year's budget are for the agreements we plan on finalizing in the coming months.

It's not just a formula. We try to take data collected through the child and family services program and tailor the program according to each community's needs and the respective areas of responsibility. So there are variations from one community to another. Over the next few years, we'll be working with national organizations to develop not just a formula, but a more coherent methodology, drawn up through co‑development. For the moment, we're working community by community. We try to adapt the program according to the needs and contributions of the provinces and territories.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

We agree that the ultimate goal is the well‑being of community members as well as the communities themselves. Right now, many communities are thinking together about how they want to transform the system. After all, everything evolves within an ecosystem.

Have you also set up a process for looking into the services provided to teenagers? You know how much they're affected by all the changes going on around them. Many of them aren't doing very well. There are a number of mental health problems, for example. I'm worried about the future of children and teenagers.

To what extent does your department address and prioritize this area?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm sorry, but I missed part of the question. Did you ask about services for adults or adolescents?

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'm talking about services for teenagers. How is your department looking into the services set up for them?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Adolescents are covered, in many ways, through both the child welfare agreements and Jordan's principle agreements.

In fact, we have something now called “post-majority care”, which actually refers to that very delicate age of youth who are 17, 18, 19 and upwards. You're absolutely right. That age is so difficult, especially for children who have experienced a life in care.

The agreements that are developed conceptualize how best to support youth, as well, within or from their communities. Each community is different. Each community has a different approach. Almost all community members want to know where their children are.

These children could be somewhere close to their community, but they could also be in other parts of the country.

That's a problem for communities, because they lose track of where their loved ones are. Therefore, part of our work is to try to work with the provinces and territories to get that information transfer to the communities so that they know where their children are and they have better options to keep their kids connected to their community and culture.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's our time.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Now we'll go to Ms. Idlout.

When you're ready, Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you. I will be speaking in Inuktitut.

[English]