Evidence of meeting #108 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
This is going to be a 10-second question. That is $66 million to save 2.6 million litres. How much per litre is that, Minister?
Liberal
Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB
First of all, I question those numbers. This is something I would turn to the public service to answer.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
I'm looking for a quick answer.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
Perhaps you'd like to turn to the officials to see if they have that response.
Valerie Gideon Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
What I can say is that we actually exceeded our target. The 2.6 million litres is exceeding our target—
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
That's not an answer to the question, so I'll respond.
Deputy Minister, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
—which was two million by March 31, 2023.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
I'm actually asking how much per litre it cost taxpayers. You're answering a different question.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
I will actually give you the number. It is over a $20 cost to taxpayers for every litre saved. Again, that is an estimate from your own department.
I want to get on to my next question. One thing I found interesting from the same program.... Wood stoves are one of the highest-emitting sources of carbon for home heating, as you likely know, Minister, so I found it strange that you would be spending carbon tax dollars on wood stoves. This is the document. It's an answer to an Order Paper question that we got right from your department. I'll go right to the first page, and this is for the money spent. On the first page, it is about funding to support the installation of wood stoves. Page two is about funding to support the purchase and installation of wood stoves. Again, on another page, it is about funding to support wood stoves. On the last page, it shows funding for the installation of close to 400 wood stoves, Minister.
The question is an obvious one. For this program, the carbon tax is supposed to be collected to reduce carbon. Here you are, as a ministry, funding projects of one of the highest-emitting sources of carbon, and that's a wood stove, Minister.
My simple question is this: Why are you funding wood stoves with the carbon tax?
Liberal
Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB
First of all, I can say that we need an overarching strategy to fight climate change. I know you don't agree with that, so that's where we differ, right off the bat. That's a foundation.
That's a detailed question, so I'll go to the public service to answer your detailed question.
Georgina Lloyd Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Part of what is a priority in the northern REACHE program is a self-determination based approach. Northerners and indigenous—
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
The question is actually about how much carbon it is reducing. The target was supposed to be seven million litres, and you've even admitted that it's only been 2.6 million. You haven't even met your target. Then, part of the cost and part of the $66 million is being spent on wood stoves. I have a report from the U.K. that says wood stoves are 550 times more inefficient than even oil-fired furnaces in the north. This is supposed to be reducing carbon, not making it worse.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
The 7.6 target is cumulative. We have met the target in the year that we were requested to.
Conservative
Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Indigenous people get to choose, and they have a self-determination based approach in terms of how they would like to replace diesel. This is replacing diesel, which is a huge producer of carbon.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Diesel-fired furnaces emit 5.4 grams per megawatt hour of energy produced. A solid open fire or a wood stove burns 500 times that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
We're out of time now. We're going to go to the next witness.
On the second question round for six minutes, I have Mr. McLeod.
Mr. McLeod, the floor is yours for six minutes.
Liberal
Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to Minister Vandal for joining us.
I know, Minister Vandal, that you're quite aware of our situation in Northwest Territories. Our communities are on the front line of climate change. All the changes that are happening are really severely impacting our supply chains. We're seeing barges being redirected to record low levels in Northwest Territories. Our supplies have to be trucked all the way to Inuvik and then barged upstream because the Mackenzie River is drying up. There are sandbars all over the place. Even small boats with outboard motors are not able to get around. All of this is disrupting the resupply of essential products.
I wanted to know if you're having these discussions. Is this something you're talking about with territorial government people and indigenous governments? Are you talking about how the communities in Northwest Territories will have access to the goods they require? Not every community has a long runway. Many communities don't have roads, and shockingly, the Mackenzie River, which is the longest river in Canada and the second longest in North America, is all completely, at least in front of my community, gravel bars all over the place. There's no way barges are going to get by. We need to find a better way to do things.
What kinds of discussions are you having with your colleagues to look at the possibilities of how we can lower the cost? Having to redirect our supplies is really going to be draining on our communities. I don't know how some of them are going to continue to exist.
Liberal
Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB
That's a great question, MP McLeod.
In Northwest Territories, I've been to Tuktoyaktuk and I've seen the shoreline erosion first-hand, when homes had to be moved away from the ocean that is rising. Families had to be relocated to other parts of the town.
I've experienced first-hand the Mackenzie River, which is suffering from drought-like conditions, while at the same time, there's no less water in the Mackenzie.
Northwest Territories last year was burning. There was an incredible number of wildfires, and 70% of the people who lived in Northwest Territories had to be relocated.
I think it's important that we continue with our whole suite of programs that battle climate change, not only at Northern Affairs, but in other government departments. That's so very important. You need to have a plan, first of all, to battle climate change.
Compare that to not even two years ago, when the Conservative Party had an annual general meeting in which the membership of the party actually voted to say that climate change was not real and that it was a hoax. You can see that sort of philosophy dripping down from the party to the people sitting in this room. They don't believe that climate change is real. That's simply the reality.
However, I've had good conversations with Premier R.J. Simpson. As recently as two weeks ago, we were in Iqaluit together, where we talked about all of the challenges and all of the ways our governments can work together. We have a good relationship with the territorial government. We know this is an existential threat. It has to begin....
Through the dark decade that we suffered prior to our government being elected in 2015, there was absolutely nothing done for climate change or infrastructure, and we need to reverse that. We know it's the right thing to do, and we know that's what Canadians want.
Liberal
Liberal
Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT
I want to quickly check this with you, because I think it's very important. I already asked Minister Hajdu about this.
Have you been having any discussions with your colleagues regarding bringing forward a program for public and private home insurance? Most people in our communities now can't afford the new rates, and people are just going without insurance. If they lose their house, they essentially become homeless.
Liberal
Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB
That's something that was identified to me—by you, actually—some time ago. There have been discussions, and there have been discussions with the premier. They are important discussions that are ongoing.
For sure, we are going to follow up on that to do whatever we need to do.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
We're out of time.
We're now going to Monsieur Lemire, who will have six minutes.