Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 3rd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 111 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

I want to start by recognizing that we are meeting on the ancestral and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples and express gratitude that we're able to do the important work of this committee on lands that they've stewarded since time immemorial.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Wednesday, April 10, 2024, the committee is meeting to continue its study on “Report 2, Housing in First Nations Communities” of the 2024 reports of the Auditor General of Canada.

Before I begin, I would like to ask that all members and other in-person participants consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. Please take note of the following preventative measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. Only use a black, approved earpiece. The former gray earpieces must no longer be used. Keep your earpiece away from all microphones at all times. When you're not using your earpiece, place it face down on the sticker placed on the table for this purpose.

Thank you to all for your co-operation.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of this meeting, and I hope, Mr. Lemire, that your connection will be sufficient to get going.

With that, I would like to welcome our witnesses today. We have the Honourable Patty Hajdu, Minister of Indigenous Services; and the Honourable Sean Fraser, Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities. They are accompanied by, from the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, Nadine Leblanc; and, from the Department of Indigenous Services, Candice St-Aubin.

Ministers, you will each have the floor for five minutes starting with Minister Hajdu.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Minister of Indigenous Services]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the committee for having me back yet again. I think it's my third time in the last few weeks, and it's a joy to be with you here on the unceded and unsurrendered territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe.

I am hoping that, the next time I come back, we will be talking about the clean water act. The first nations clean water act is a very important piece of legislation that this committee will have the privilege of studying, and the AFN and other parties have been very clear. They're asking all parties to move quickly to get the bill to committee so that we can listen to witnesses. I hope that we will not see continued blockage of this bill by any party, because this is a deeply important piece of legislation to many first nations across the country.

That said, let's talk about the Auditor General's report, which shows how important it is to partner with first nations.

This is not a new problem. It's a problem that far too many indigenous people have experienced their entire lives. It is the result of decades of colonialism and oppression, and proves an important point: Racism is costly.

Today, the bill for the infrastructure deficit is $350 billion. Let's be clear: Progress is being made, but the problem won't be resolved overnight. It's going to take an effort on the part of all levels of government, organizations and private companies.

We have to do away with the archaic, one-size-fits-all systems that are often in place. They are not only deeply insulting to first nations, but they simply don't work. We all remember the paternalistic $300-million fund that the Leader of the Opposition oversaw when he was minister. That program did not work, either. It got exactly 99 homes built on reserve for $300 million.

This is why first nations' housing solutions must be developed by or co-developed with first nations themselves and they must be flexible so they can meet the specific needs of each community.

That's what the national first nations housing and related infrastructure strategy is all about. It was co-developed with the AFN, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and first nations across Canada. It's a clear contrast with the paternalistic approach. It will get us closer to a Canada where first nations also have a safe place to rest, to raise their children and to reach their full potential.

Recently, I was in Lytton First Nation. They're making giant steps in rebuilding after a devastating wildfire. With new funding, 20 homes are being fast-tracked and they plan to build over 175 homes over the next decade. This is no coincidence. Indeed, since we took office in 2015, Liberals increased targeted funding and housing by 1,100% and budget 2024 adds another $1 billion.

Equally important, the tools that we're developing together with first nations people are restoring control of housing back to communities. We've supported the First Nations Housing Professionals Association to train people on project management, construction planning, tenant relations and renovation coordination. They've certified 48 housing professionals. They have an additional 151 people in training and this is to build housing capacity in first nations communities across the country.

I saw that in action in Lytton. In fact, they said the speed at which they've been able to develop the division and get the infrastructure in place so the housing could be put into place for families who lost their homes in that devastating wildfire was because of internal capacity within the community.

The difference between the Liberal approach and the Conservative attitude is clear. Conservatives are stuck in paternalistic thinking, combined with a spin of austerity.

On our end, we focus on closing the gap through partnership and mutual respect. It's the right thing to do in the spirit of reconciliation, but it's also the only approach that works. It's the only way that we can ensure a fairer future and a fairer Canada for indigenous peoples.

Meegwetch. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Minister Hajdu.

Next up, we will give the floor to Minister Fraser for five minutes.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Minister of Housing]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Colleagues, I am pleased to be here to discuss the important issue of housing for indigenous and northern communities. This issue is important not only for the government, but also for the entire country.

I want to say thanks so much for having me.

It's clear that Canada's experiencing a housing crisis and that crisis is felt disproportionately by indigenous communities across Canada. When I hear about the challenges and when I speak with those who are most impacted, they tell me stories of overcrowding in their communities and of risks to health that can manifest as a result of that overcrowding. They tell me about a seeming lack of understanding of those of us who come from the south about the challenges when it comes to the actual process of building in Canada's north.

We see a disproportionate representation of indigenous peoples amongst homeless Canadians.

It's essential that we acknowledge where we are if we're going to get where we want to be.

We've seen over the course of Canada's history a lack of investment that would be necessary to actually close the gap when it comes to the housing needs amongst indigenous peoples in this country and everyone else. The housing crisis, over the course of the past year or so, has really captured the attention of Canadians, but I think there's still insufficient light being shone upon the extraordinary needs of indigenous communities across Canada.

We've taken a step in a new direction—

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'm sorry to interrupt the minister, but there is no interpretation into French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

We'll just pause for a second to make sure the interpretation is working.

Can we continue?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Can you confirm the translation's working?

I'm getting a thumbs-up, so I'll continue.

We took a step in a new direction a number of years ago, not only with a significant increase in funding, as Minister Hajdu described, but also by more and more ensuring that we are empowering indigenous communities and indigenous leaders to take decisions about the investments that will support indigenous communities.

I see Mr. Battiste from Nova Scotia here. This approach in other areas has delivered immense dividends. I'm thinking of the education reforms that were put in place a number of years ago in Nova Scotia that dramatically increased graduation rates when decision-making power over the education system was put in the hands of indigenous communities.

We aim to do more of that with the distinctions-based approach that we've taken toward new funding with $4 billion behind it to build out more housing in communities. With the approach to urban, rural and northern communities, it's going to, again, work with distinctions-based organizations but also with an indigenous-led centre that will help make decisions about where the funding goes.

It's not enough to just change the process. You actually have to back these programs up with serious money.

As Minister Hajdu indicated, we've seen a 1,100% increase in the total funding going to initiatives specifically for indigenous housing. This also comes through programs that may involve bilateral agreements with other levels of government that make investments directly in communities. It would include affordable housing initiatives through the affordable housing fund or the rapid housing initiative. About 40% of the investments have gone to support indigenous housing initiatives. We've seen significant uptake of the housing accelerator fund with partners that lead indigenous communities.

These investments are starting to make a difference, but I'm not here to tell you that the problem has been solved. I'm here to tell you that we need to continue to do more. With consistent and predictable investments, we'll be able to create an ecosystem where we are doing a better job of meeting the demands that dramatically and disproportionately impact indigenous communities. We have more work to do to ensure that we not only meet the housing needs but also create opportunities for indigenous communities to realize the economic benefits by actually delivering on those housing needs.

I think of the conversations I had in Iqaluit when I was visiting MP Idlout in her community where we heard loud and clear that, despite the fact that there are significant investments going to Canada's north for housing as compared to years past, many of the economic benefits go to the companies that provide goods and services from the south. We have continuous learning opportunities. However, we have to take our lead from those who are most impacted. I'm looking forward, in the months and years ahead, to increasing the pace of delivery and the understanding of how the federal government can support indigenous communities in meeting the housing needs to bring to an end the housing crisis that they have been living through for far too many years.

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Minister Fraser.

With that, we'll go into the first round of questioning, starting with Mr. Schmale for six minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ministers, for being here today.

Minister Fraser, you just mentioned your desire to keep doing more. However, this is the fourth Auditor General's report on indigenous housing, and there has been little to no improvement, according to the report.

Where are the homes you promised?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Since we've formed government, there are tens of thousands of homes that have been built or repaired through the programs that we've advanced. I would accept the recommendations of the Auditor General, which don't remain uniform as between reports. In fact, one of the reasons it's essential we maintain that position is so that we can have continued assessment of where we're at vis-à-vis where we need to be. The specific homes that you're asking about would depend on each community. There are members represented here who have homes in their communities today that did not exist a number of years ago. We need to accelerate the pace of that delivery.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

According to the report here, 55,320 housing units need to be built between now and 2030 to keep on track. However, from 2018 to now, only 4,379 or 8% of the units have been completed. Thirteen per cent are in progress, and 79% are still needed.

Again, Minister, where are the homes?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

As I mentioned, it will depend on which community you're talking about. We need to increase the pace of construction, and there's some irony in the question coming from a member whose party has a history of not making investments in housing in indigenous communities and who votes against the funding that comes towards this housing.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Minister, according to the Auditor General, there has been little to no improvement in the last four Auditor General's reports. The last time I checked, you've been here for nine years, yet we are still dealing with the same problem.

Again, where are the homes?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

With respect, over those nine years, every time there was an opportunity to support or vote for more investments in housing for indigenous communities, you have voted against them. It's ironic for you to sit here and pretend to be a champion for indigenous housing when your voting history has gone in the opposite direction at every opportunity.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Minister, it still does not let you off the hook for the past nine years. Where are the homes?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

There are tens of thousands of homes that have been added to housing supply in indigenous communities as a result of the investments that we've made. Do we need to do more? Yes, absolutely.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Little to nothing has changed. You keep saying you have to do more, and it seems the track record of this government is to spend money and use that as their talking point, but outcomes have not been changing, and that's the thing we should be actually focusing on.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I agree that we should be focusing on outcomes, but when I compare the outcome of tens of thousands of new homes existing with the 99 new homes that were built while your leader was the housing minister, it's clear that there is no contest. Moreover, it's not reasonable for a Conservative MP to show up at this committee and ask to do more on indigenous housing when you have voted against money for indigenous housing at every opportunity.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

You and your government have said that indigenous communities are the most important relationship. However, little to nothing has changed on the housing file. This is still substandard housing in many communities, and you're not even on track to meet the goals that you say you want to achieve. Again, what are you doing differently? You say you need to do more. Well, clearly nothing much has changed in the last nine years. What is the more?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

The more is investing significant resources in homebuilding for indigenous communities and empowering indigenous communities to make decisions about how those investments are made. Both of those things were completely absent from the Conservative approach to housing when it came to indigenous people in this country. We have a sea change in approach and a dramatic increase in resources. We recently saw an increase in homebuilding, and we will continue to see more.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chair, there is no interpretation into French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Hold on.

You can continue with your time.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Minister, it was the Residential Construction Council of Ontario that said that there was no way the feds would meet their housing targets. Again, where are the homes you promised? Seventy-nine per cent of units are still needed.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, it's only been a few minutes, and we're already seen the Conservative member move off the issue of indigenous housing, much like they did when they had the opportunity to make investments and chose not to.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I figure you're not going to answer the question, so I might as well try another topic to try to get you to answer.

Chair, it's my time. Can I reclaim that time please, Chair?