Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 3rd, 2024

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Yes. I do.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I appreciate the answer, Minister. That's not something we get very often around here.

You say that you believe policing on first nations is essential. You mentioned in your opening comments that the government is committed to tabling legislation. Unfortunately, this is something we have heard for a number of years now.

Your predecessor who was rightly removed from his position at the time in 2022 said that he was going to work around the clock to get this done. He said that it was right around the corner, that this legislation would be here, and since then we have seen delays. The government at one point began blaming the AFN for dragging its feet, which was a ridiculous assertion in an attempt to deflect from your government, but now you are the minister and the buck stops with you.

Why should Canadians and first nations across the country believe you this time?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

They should believe us because there has been a considerable body of work done in this respect. I refer to consultations that Assistant Deputy Minister Moran has had and her colleagues have had across the country. These are ongoing conversations. As I said, I'm picking up the conversation with the national chief later this afternoon.

I don't underestimate the complexity of this initiative. I participated in a federal-provincial-territorial meeting in Bromont, Quebec, with provincial and territorial ministers. They, obviously, have different views as to how this legislation might apply.

As I noted, it's a constitutional jurisdiction they have, but that doesn't mean that we don't have an obligation to get it right. I know the suspense has been terrible for you, but I think you should look forward to seeing legislation, I hope, in an appropriate moment.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Minister. Again, I appreciate that. I want to stress again the urgency, because this was 2022. It's been two years that your government has been dragging its feet. Since the commitment, of course, you've had nine years in government, with ample opportunity to move this forward.

I had an opportunity to speak with your deputy minister at a previous committee about this process. He mentioned that, “It is simply the struggle of co-developing legislation”.

Minister, why is developing legislation in consultation with first nations a struggle for your department?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I don't think working in a sensitive and appropriate way with first nations partners is anything other than the appropriate way that we should be doing this work. My experience with the department is exactly how they're approaching this work. As I say, I have a lot of confidence—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Do you disagree with Mr. Tupper, your deputy minister? Do you disagree with his characterization that this is a struggle, or do you agree with it?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I would never seek to disagree with a deputy minister as senior and as experienced as Shawn Tupper—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

So you do believe that it is a struggle for your department to work and collaborate with first nations.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

No. That's the word you're using. I said it's an—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

That's the word your deputy minister used on the record in committee.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

If you want to ask the deputy minister a question, you can. What I'm happy to tell you is that it's work that we're committed to doing. The deputy minister and our officials in the department are doing I think very constructive and positive work. He and I and Chris and others are going to meet the national chief to continue this work in a little less than an hour from now.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Okay. Thank you, Minister.

I'd like to move into some details of the report that you're here to discuss. Of course, a lot is concerning. For me in northwestern Ontario, a Treaty 3 territory captures most of my riding. What's concerning in our local context is that Treaty 3, as well as two other police services in Ontario, have had to take the government to court. They are fighting for equal recognition.

All of this is happening—such an important, essential service as policing is—and we see that your department anticipates that over $45 million in program funds will be left undisbursed at the end of this fiscal year. Why?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, our colleague has asked a number of questions—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Just one question.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Well, there was a long preamble where you referenced some of the northern Ontario work. In fact, some of the police leadership that has most inspired me has been from northern Ontario. I have learned a great deal from some of the police leaders in your part of our country. I think we should acknowledge that this is a part of the country that has seen considerable success. We need to find a way to support them.

With respect to the lapsing of money—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I appreciate that, Minister. I appreciate that. But—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I was about to answer your question on the lapsing of money.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

—your department has $45 million on the table. Why are you not spending this money?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

When I read the Auditor General's report, that was a source of concern to me. I discussed it with the senior RCMP leadership in the department right away. One of the challenges is that this program is a cost-shared program. Our contribution comes at the end of the process, once provinces or territories allocate their own money.

In some cases, as I referred to in my opening comments, it has to do with the RCMP's ability to staff a particular position in a particular community. If that particular position is not able to be staffed, that's a separate challenge that we're making considerable progress in addressing. I hope somebody asks us about recruitment and retention for some of these positions in indigenous communities, because there's a good story to tell there.

But you can see the challenge. The department is not able to allocate money to a particular position that is not filled, and nor under a contribution agreement are we able to allocate money if a partner hasn't matched the 48%. There should be zero money lapsed. The way to get to zero money lapsed—we should increase the funding, which we're prepared to do—is to work with provincial and territorial partners and the RCMP to improve the way they recruit and retain, which is well under way.

I'm confident that the number should be diminishing rapidly, but we do need to work with our policing partners in different jurisdictions to get that number to zero. I don't want to pretend that we alone have the ability to drive that number to zero, but we will work with them to get it to zero as quickly as we can.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Melillo.

Our second questioner in the first round of the second panel is Mr. Powlowski for six minutes.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you.

We've heard you talk, Minister, about developing and co-developing legislation to make first nations policing an essential service, but we haven't really heard about the significance of that. What is the significance? What does that mean, practically speaking, for providing good-quality policing in indigenous communities?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

As Dr. Powlowski noted, the designation of first nations' policing as an essential service confirms, I think, something that non-indigenous communities have known for a very long time. It's that the ability to rely on professional, accessible, independent policing services is an essential requirement for communities to be safe, for communities to be able to grow and for families to be able to work and live in communities. It should be no less so in indigenous communities.

I learned something from representatives of policing services in northern Ontario, which is so ably represented by Dr. Powlowski.

Imagine if you worked for the Toronto Police Service—or heaven forfend, the RCMP, Bryan Larkin—and you didn't know if you would have a paycheque on April 1 because it's a contribution agreement based on a certain number of fiscal years.

How do you train, recruit and maintain public confidence and the confidence of the officers who serve in these police forces if there isn't long-term, reliable and recurring funding?

The idea is to designate it as an essential service and provide legislative certainty as to the long-term, recurring nature of the funding. It will—I learned this from police chiefs from northern Ontario—be a lot easier for them to recruit and retain the kind of professional officers that they want to serve in their communities. It speaks to the leadership in those communities being able to count on what is in every other community an essential service, as I said.

The idea that it sunsets with a contribution agreement wouldn't make sense in a non-indigenous community. We think it's a long overdue thing that we can correct. We hope we can correct it legislatively.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you.

Maybe you partly answered this question with that response.

I certainly know that they have trouble recruiting people to work in indigenous communities. Having spoken to one police chief recently, it seems this is a common problem across Canada, within both indigenous communities and non-indigenous communities.

What are we doing to try to recruit more people into policing in general, but more particularly to work in indigenous communities?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

It's a subject of conversation I've had with the leadership of the RCMP since I became the public safety minister.

Assistant Commissioner Brown is in a great position to answer that based on his work. If it's okay, he might be able to give some more specific answers.

[Assistant Commissioner Warren Brown, Indigenous and Support Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The RCMP, along with other police organizations nationally, right now are having a very challenging time recruiting anybody, period.

With that, in 2023, we started a very robust recruiting program. We launched a first nations, Inuit and Métis recruiting strategy specific to those designations to help increase the number of applicants and increase candidate retention. The key objectives of this strategy include targeted marketing and outreach, reduction of barriers for applicants and the provision of support for applicants.

Our goal is to reach 10% indigenous cadets at Depot by the year 2027. For the first time since the pandemic, we are up to 40 troops. We have a goal of getting to 50 troops, with the full 32 allotment within those troops.

I attended Depot last week. It was the 30th anniversary of the indigenous pre-cadet training program, IPTP. We had a full troop with that. Many of these young adults want to work not only in their home communities, but in other indigenous communities.

We have our second IPTP troop starting in August. I think we're on a really good pathway as it is right now.

Overall, the RCMP has about 2,500 vacancies. That's about a 15% vacancy pattern across the board for frontline policing.

In our indigenous communities, however, out of 1,823 indigenous employees, we have about a 7% vacancy. Again, I don't say that's good, but I think we're making some pretty good headway.

I'm really optimistic that in years to come, we'll have a really good-news story for you.

Thank you.