Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 3rd, 2024

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

With respect, we have—

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Shields.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I would suggest that the member, Mr. Schmale, be able to ask his question. It's his time. The minister is going on and talking about other things.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

About nonsense.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

He needs to be able to reclaim his time to be able to speak and ask questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Schmale, I'll give you one more question, okay?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair. I appreciate the opportunity.

Again, we are not seeing your targets met for non-first nations or indigenous communities and across the country. There have been no targets met. You're not on track anywhere in this country to meet your housing targets.

You say you have to do more. Fine. But the last four Auditor General reports have said that nothing has changed. I want to know, specifically, what is going to change.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

First, with respect to the issue of targets, the targets outlined in the national housing strategy under our bilateral agreements and affordable housing investments have delivered more units than were set out as a goal at the outset. But we need to do more, as I've mentioned repeatedly. We have broadcast a series of measures in the recent housing plan that are going to increase the investments. The Conservatives seem to struggle with the idea that you should set a target that's going to solve a problem, not one that your measures are going to lead to anyway.

As a final comment, because I expect I'm going to run out of time, during the last exchange I should point out that when one of the members said something about what I was talking about, the questioner said it was “nonsense”.

Investment in housing for indigenous peoples in this country is not nonsense. It may appear that way, given the questions today and the history of the Conservative Party, but for the record, the government takes a different view.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Schmale.

With that, we will go to our second questioner in the first round.

Mr. McLeod, you have six minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ministers, thank you for joining us today. It's a very important topic for me and a very important topic for my constituents. In my previous life, I had the honour of being the housing minister for the Government of the Northwest Territories. I've been looking at the issue of housing for many years. I can tell you that for a long time we've been in a housing crisis.

Minister Fraser, you mentioned that we have a crisis on our hands. That crisis has been there for many years. During the time of the Conservative Party being in power, virtually zero dollars were coming for indigenous housing. Now we have two streams of funding coming to the Northwest Territories: Indigenous Services Canada money and CMHC money. We're still in a crisis, except we're in a crisis with a little bit of light shining through the tunnel. For the first time in our history, we have indigenous housing money coming to the Northwest Territories.

We also have CMHC programs that are being tapped into by our communities. From our smallest communities, such as Nahanni Butte, to our largest centre of Yellowknife, they're accessing the housing accelerator fund and putting up houses through the rapid housing program and homelessness investments. It's very good to see all that investment coming to the Northwest Territories, but of course we have to do more. I would really like to see the two streams of funding continue.

The Auditor General's report that we're talking about today doesn't cover housing in the Northwest Territories' indigenous communities. It only focuses on first nations south of 60. That is very disappointing to me, because information and statistics are very important when it comes to budgeting. I raised it with the Auditor General. I understand that the Auditor General will be reviewing housing in the Northwest Territories and will be looking at the territorial housing agency. It sounds like it will happen later on this year. I look forward to reading her office's findings.

My question to both you, as ministers, is this: Can you discuss how ISC and CMHC, respectively, are working directly with indigenous governments and organizations in the Northwest Territories to address the housing needs of their communities?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Well, thank you very much, MP McLeod, and thanks for your ongoing advocacy for northern communities, especially in the Northwest Territories. You're right: The Auditor General's audit didn't look at first nations communities in Northwest Territories or the other territories because almost all of on-reserve first nations communities are located in the provinces, so I'm glad you had a chance to speak with her about how to get that data from northern communities, which are self-governing in many cases.

I think what we've learned, especially through emergency management, is that we need to work more closely with the territories. Quite frankly, the experience I had last summer supporting K'atl'odeeche—as you know, during the crisis they were experiencing resulting from the wildfire, and feeling really unheard, in many ways, by the territory at that particular time—informed us of the work we can do to support the territories in their obligation to meet the housing needs of self-governing people and to work with self-governing first nations to result in more housing.

The good news is that there was an announcement on January 18, 2024, that CMHC provided almost $19 million more to support building 54 homes in indigenous communities in the Northwest Territories. You can see that this idea that we need to work more closely with self-governing first nations, and with first nations that are in territories, is starting to percolate throughout departments.

Maybe I can turn to Minister Fraser to talk about CMHC and that evolution.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Maybe before I answer I'll say thank you. Michael, it was you personally who opened my eyes to the dramatic need to increase investments, a few years ago, in advance of the budget 2022 decision to increase distinctions-based funding to the tune of $4 billion. I think your being a champion for housing in the north has reached those of us who come from other parts of the country, and it's an example of your providing sincere value to the work we do in Ottawa.

Let me say that engagement directly with communities has to be a big part of the answer. Minister Hajdu mentioned a moment ago some of the investments CMHC made. We do that through the housing accelerator fund and with reaching deals directly with communities; through Reaching Home—51 projects just in the Northwest Territories—by leveraging resources like the rapid housing initiative to identify project proponents that have the capacity to deliver; and through our distinctions-based funding by engaging directly with rights holders and empowering them to make decisions about their own communities, but acting as a reliable partner when it comes to funding.

I see I'm out of time here, but I just want to reiterate my gratitude for the work that you do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. McLeod.

Mr. Lemire, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before I start, can the interpreters confirm whether my microphone audio is good enough? I had a problem with my Internet connection, but I think it's fixed now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Yes, it's fine.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

For a change, I am speaking to you this morning from Montreal, where I am attending the 2024 annual Grand Economic Circle of Indigenous People and Quebec. It is funded in part by Indigenous Services Canada, but so far, I haven't seen any participants from the federal government.

Several basic points have been raised, including one that brought to mind the topic we're discussing this morning. One of the speakers emphasized the importance of reducing the gap between first nations and people in the rest of the country in terms of economic wealth. That gap is particularly acute when it comes to housing construction.

Mr. Fraser, what are you committed to doing to close the gap between wealthier indigenous communities and those that do not have the capacity to build as quickly as others?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you for the question.

It is very important that indigenous communities and other communities be on an equal footing. There is no simple answer, but first of all, the situation could be improved by increasing investments in communities that do not have the necessary resources. That is why we're going to create funds to support those communities and give them the powers to make their own decisions.

It's not okay to have an “Ottawa knows best” attitude in many of these circumstances. Communities tend to know their needs, and we have to put resources on the table.

At the same time, this is a broader conversation, perhaps, about increasing resources and creating opportunities for success within communities by partnering not just on housing projects but also on other endeavours. For example, in my home province, a new opportunity to create an equity stake in green battery storage for Mi'kmaq communities is going to create additional financial resources.

It's a combination of setting the table for success and making the investments necessary to help play catch-up at the risk of dramatically oversimplifying a very complex challenge.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Could I add to that, Mr. Chair?

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

The reality—

Pardon me, Minister, I didn't mean to interrupt. Go ahead.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It's not just a matter of additional funding. It is, as I think my colleague has said, about additional financing models.

Last week, we talked about projects like the Yänonhchia’ initiative.

That leveraged the investments that first nations received through the federal government, and that actually changed the dynamic of the housing market on first nations.

I think there's way more we can do—leveraging investments to attract private capital and many other tools—that can accelerate this work.

Thank you for a very good question.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Minister Hajdu. You just anticipated one of the questions I was going to ask about the expertise that is being developed by and for indigenous people as part of the Yänonhchia' initiative.

I want to come back to housing construction. One of the things that is absolutely shocking, in my opinion, is the fact that the funding allows communities to build only two housing units a year. With the baby boom that these communities are experiencing, two housing units a year do not meet their needs. We will need to step outside the box.

There is another problem I would like to hear your comments on, Minister Fraser. What are you going to do about the standards that are required within indigenous communities? These communities do not have the same capacity to apply these standards as a traditionally white city, if I may use that expression, particularly a large city.

When it comes to indigenous funding, standards are required and time frames are very short. Often, within a two-year period, the architectural plans and specifications are required, as are the documents for the water system connections, and then construction has to start. These time frames are not realistic. As a result, grand announcements of billions of dollars are made when budgets are tabled, but in many cases, a large part of that money, around $8 billion, goes back into government coffers, into the consolidated revenue fund. That money isn't being spent on indigenous people.

How do you pledge to resolve this situation in a lasting way?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you for the question.

The first stage for me is to not exclusively have programs that are driven by decisions made in Ottawa.

One, putting the resources in the hands of communities that know their priorities is an essential ingredient if we're going to actually solve some of these problems.

Two, we need to continue increasing the resources that are going to solve the problem if we're going to achieve meaningful progress, but it's even more complicated than you've laid out in your question. Some of the nuances require us to understand that building housing in indigenous communities is different and more expensive, in many instances, than it can be in other communities.

Take Canada's north, for example, where you're dealing not only with challenging construction seasons but with a need to understand that a sea-lift here only allows you to deliver the supplies to build houses during certain portions of the year.

Engaging directly with communities and empowering them to make decisions about how those resources will be administered will deliver a far greater understanding of how to solve the problem efficiently than making decisions behind closed doors on Parliament Hill will.

Engaging with communities, increasing resources and trusting leaders to understand the needs of their communities are all essential ingredients to move forward and achieve progress.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Mr. Chair, if I might add to that, I just to want to correct something. There was no money turned back to the Treasury Board from my department. Over the past three years, we've spent the entirety of our allocation and, in fact, have moved money very quickly to communities that can utilize that money if projects are delayed in other spaces.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire. Your time is up.

As the last questioner in the first round, Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.