Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 3rd, 2024

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Minister, you haven't answered my question twice now. I've asked whether the previous two examples have been a success or a failure. You deliberately aren't answering that as a success or failure. You're saying that you're just going to throw more money at it or make bigger promises. Your government can't even plant two billion trees, and yet you're going to promise to build four million houses.

I will read parts of an article on the housing units promised in Taloyoak, Nunavut, including two fiveplexes that still haven't been built because they're coming in at an extremely high cost of $1.1 million per unit:

“They were just all way too expensive,” Kusugak said. “The housing corporation just doesn't have that type of money.”

This isn't the first time in recent years the Nunavut government has cancelled projects due to the rising costs.

Guess why?

Canada's rising inflation rate, high fuel prices and supply chain delays have affected construction in the territory....

Minister, you're going to say, “It's not my responsibility, not my fault.” You've been in government for almost a decade. It's all your fault.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, I didn't hear a question at the end of that. However, I would point out that we're dealing with—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Okay, I'll ask it: Has this been a—

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, do I have the floor?

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I'll ask the question.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

[Inaudible—Editor] take my direction from you.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Has housing been a success or a failure, Minister?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Order, please, Mr. Zimmer.

You have 10 seconds for a short answer, Minister Fraser. Then we have to move on.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

We have built more than 22,000 homes in indigenous communities through the programs we've introduced since 2015. The Conservative government had a $300-million fund that had 99. I will not take lessons on delivery when it comes to housing in indigenous communities from someone who votes against every one of the policies that would support it when he's clearly motivated by his political interest rather than trying to help vulnerable communities.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Your time has elapsed.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Go ahead on your point of order, Mr. Zimmer.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Yes. He asked me a question and I still had 10 seconds left.

The question was whether you were a success or a failure. You clearly have been a failure.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you, Mr. Zimmer.

Next we have Mr. Carr for five minutes.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Minister Hajdu, but I certainly offer the opportunity to Minister Fraser to weigh in as well.

Ministers, we heard a number of weeks ago that part of what has posed an obstacle and an ongoing challenge for housing in the north is the impacts of climate change. Having sat on the agriculture committee over the course of the past number of months, we know that this is posing significant challenges to farmers and producers across the country. It manifests, of course, in all sorts of different ways, whether that's in the agricultural industry, whether that's in the transportation industry or whether that's people just trying to participate in leisurely activities with their kids outdoors.

It clearly has also had an impact on housing costs and the conditions of housing in the north. In northern Manitoba, for example, where we're seeing recession in terms of permafrost, that's posing significant challenges with things like our rail line in Churchill and other pieces of infrastructure.

Minister Hajdu, can you comment, please, on the ways in which you and your department have seen the impacts of climate change impact first nations housing specifically?

Minister Fraser, if you want to talk about housing more generally in relation to climate change, I'd certainly welcome those comments as well.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much for a real question about a real challenge facing not just indigenous communities but communities across Canada with the advent of a warming climate and increasingly climate-related disasters. In fact, many of the visits when I've had the pleasure of meeting with first nations have been to communities that are working to rebuild homes and other infrastructure after a devastating climate-related incident. On the east coast they had torrential flooding. I know that MP Battiste would know all about the kinds of impacts that flooding is having on first nations communities, in particular around housing but other infrastructure as well. I mentioned Lytton First Nation and Skwlax nearby, which suffered tremendous infrastructure loss.

This is not only creating instability for first nations communities, it's also destroying functional infrastructure that costs, in some cases, millions of dollars to replace. Obviously, the more remote a community is, the harder it is to build. It's something that I think is really absent from the consideration of the questions I've been hearing from the official opposition. Getting equipment and people and infrastructure supplies to remote communities that are often not road accessible is an additional cost that has to be borne.

I will also say that it delays communities that oftentimes have a variety of things under way—economic development, projects of their own, infrastructure plans for investing in building up their communities—and when a climate-related disaster strikes, all of that is put on pause while the community responds to that crisis and evacuates its residents, sometimes for months and months, if not longer.

Lastly, I will say that some communities, such as Peguis First Nation, due to the historical location of their community—you would know this very well, MP Carr, and you've been an advocate for communities in Manitoba—will see repeated flooding. That really undermines the progress they have been able to regain inch by inch after significant flooding events.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Fraser, did you want to add to that?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm happy to supplement the answer.

We see unique climate impacts in indigenous communities and northern communities that disproportionately impact indigenous peoples across Canada. Some of them can be building resilient housing that can withstand severe weather events. Others will require us to make better planning decisions and share information around where we're expecting more severe weather, such as floods. In my hometown, hurricanes had a unique impact, not only on Mr. Battiste's community in Cape Breton but also Pictou Landing and Paq'tnkek First Nation in northern Nova Scotia.

We also see important unique factors to consider when it comes to housing in the north. The changing nature of permafrost on building practices, needing to build to a different code given the cold climate and the necessary infrastructure that can impact the ability and time at which you can ship or transport the necessary materials to build all feed into it. That's in addition to understanding the different nature of what it takes to build a home when it you consider the different impacts of not only climate change but also the traditional climate.

This has to be front and centre in all our conversations. It's not good enough to build a house that will last the next few months. We have to build a housing ecosystem that will last a generation.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thanks very much, Ministers, I appreciate the commentary on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Carr.

We're moving on to our third questioner in the second round.

Mr. Lemire, you have two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, as I mentioned earlier, we have to make sure that first nations have the expertise within their communities to carry out projects, and that is a major problem. How do you ensure that you have architects and engineers who can design buildings in the communities?

There is also the issue of insurance. I recently met with representatives of the FNFA, the First Nations Finance Authority, who told me that there's a major problem when it comes to insuring loans. The traditional ways of assessing whether a project is risky or not do not apply to indigenous communities. We know that the FNFA has developed expertise that is recognized in the insurance industry.

Finally, there are a number of initiatives to raise capital. The Yänonhchia' initiative is a good example. It relies on the Aboriginal Savings Corporation of Canada to establish financial credibility.

Minister Hajdu, over the coming years, how will you support these initiatives that develop the indigenous know-how used by and for indigenous projects?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire. That's a great question.

We have a new program to improve the capacity of first nations.

It's called the housing management subsidy. It was announced in budget 2022, and it includes $157 million to support the training of the kinds of experts that you're talking about—housing managers on reserve—who can help with the very issue of protecting the property, making sure the property is maintained and making sure that those assessments are up to date to address some of the issues you've identified, like insurance.

We also received $66 million over three years to devote to training and certification, and the provisions of technical services for those first nations housing managers.

I will also say that you mentioned using a partnership between government and private capital to accelerate building houses. Let me give you an example of some work that CMHC did that was announced on April 18, 2023. CMHC partnered with the indigenous-owned private credit fund, Keewaywin Capital Inc., on a pilot project to build over 330 homes financed by private capital. This demonstrates how private credit can work as a viable low-risk way to augment the investments that the federal government is making.

I think you're on the right track with the questions you're asking. That's exactly the direction that this government wants to go...those tools of self-determination, including the skills, the knowledge and the partnerships that often can be formed once that capacity continues to grow.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you. Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire.

The last questioner is Ms. Idlout.

Ms. Idlout, you have two and a half minutes.