Evidence of meeting #114 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consultation.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Scarpaleggia.
Mr. Lemire now has the floor for two and a half minutes.
5:20 p.m.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Let me go back to the question I asked earlier.
Will the mandate of the First Nations Water Commission mean that, as in the case of the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, ministers will no longer be responsible for the actions of industries? If so, indigenous communities could find themselves, once again, in a risky situation where they may have to challenge the industries' failings alone in court.
Will the First Nations Water Commission have powers or a tribunal to apply sanctions?
In addition, will the First Nations Water Commission be free from all conflicts of interest?
5:20 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services
We're certainly envisioning, and the input we have heard from partners is very much that the commission would be first nations-led and independent from the federal government. There would be funding provided. We would be a partner, but it would be first nations-led and first nations-governed. It's not an ISC commission. It's a first nations water commission.
The views and the input that we have heard to date are really around that serving as a centre of expertise to provide technical guidance and support to communities, but what we've outlined in the proposed legislation is a commitment to co-operate and collaborate with first nations as the terms of reference get developed for that. There are no preconceived notions around what.... The mandate of that has not been finalized. That will be work that's done once the legislation is passed: It will be one of the first orders of business in terms of implementing.
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
So, as legislators, we have to trust the government. There is a consensus, however, that when First Nations have trusted government throughout history, it has often been to their great disadvantage.
The government will accumulate an enormous amount of information on water, based on data from the population. But who will own the data? Will the data be open? Will it belong to First Nations? Will it belong to the federal or provincial governments? Who will own the water? Will it be a question of shared jurisdiction, if it's open data?
5:25 p.m.
Acting Director, Legislation, Engagement and Regulations Directorate, Department of Indigenous Services
Thank you for the question.
Maybe just to add some additional pieces, because the commission does complement other elements of the proposed bill, including the rights recognition and the principles that are laid out in the bill, there are data sharing and data principles in the bill that would be guiding all decision-making throughout the whole bill, including the co-development of those terms of reference for the water commission, as well as any agreements to support the exercise of first nation rights. In terms of those first nation rights, it's really about recognizing first nation jurisdiction and their leadership and that their knowledge is theirs.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire.
With that, we'll go to Ms. Idlout for two and a half minutes.
The floor is yours.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU
[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]
Thank you, Chair.
Chief Chris Moonias of Neskantaga Nation said after Bill C-61 was introduced that he did not get the chance to review it before it was tabled. He said that this is colonialism at its finest. How was this bill allowed to proceed without the consultation of one of the main plaintiffs on this Bill C-61?
5:25 p.m.
Acting Director, Legislation, Engagement and Regulations Directorate, Department of Indigenous Services
As contemplated in the 2021 settlement agreement, a first nations advisory committee was created. If you go through that agreement, it does have diverse first nations from all over present-day Canada represented on the committee, which was instrumental, as defined by its role in the settlement agreement, in informing the development of the proposed bill that is with you today. Similar to the dialogue table, which my colleague mentioned earlier, there was ongoing work with that committee to ensure that it lived up to the settlement agreement.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU
[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]
I would like an answer as to why Chief Chris Moonias of Neskantaga Nation was not presented with this bill before it was tabled.
5:25 p.m.
Acting Director, Legislation, Engagement and Regulations Directorate, Department of Indigenous Services
I appreciate the question.
It is a bit difficult for us to answer, as we are not the chief. It's ultimately up to first nations and first nation leadership to define their role in the development of that process. We take all input that we receive very seriously to move forward to strengthen the bill that you see with you today.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU
[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]
Did you give him an opportunity to review this Bill C-61?
5:25 p.m.
Acting Director, Legislation, Engagement and Regulations Directorate, Department of Indigenous Services
Yes, it was part of all of our outreach to every single first nation across present-day Canada.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.
Next we'll be moving to Mr. Melillo for five minutes.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON
Thank you Mr. Chair.
I want to come back to the protection zone again, then I promise I'll move on to another topic. I want to make sure that I was clear in my earlier questions—and I'll come back to the Justice official again if I can. With respect, I'm not interested in what should happen or anything like that, but rather what could happen with the current legislation that's drafted here around the protection zone.
I'm wondering if the minister could define what the protection zone would be without the consent of one of the parties—the first nation or the province or territory. Could that happen as it's currently drafted?
5:30 p.m.
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs and Department of Indigenous Services, Department of Justice
It's always important that the minister's discretion is not fettered. If they have a legal ability to make a regulation, for example, that is a key consideration. What we've tried to do in this bill is to say that before making a regulation it's critically important to consult. That is a key factor that the minister would have to do before she even got to the regulation-making stage. In this bill she couldn't skip that.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON
That's understood. Thank you. I appreciate all of that, but you didn't answer the question: The minister could make that definition without their consent. I appreciate that.
Further, this is my last question on the protection zone, and this is for anyone who wants to comment on it. Are there any federal acts that achieve or at least aim to achieve what the protection zone would achieve currently in law?
5:30 p.m.
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs and Department of Indigenous Services, Department of Justice
Are there other federal acts that are similar in that they provide a protection—
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON
Do they or would they cover what the protection zone is aimed to cover?
5:30 p.m.
Senior Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs and Department of Indigenous Services, Department of Justice
I'm not aware of acts. Canada has several federal statutes that deal with environmental matters on lands throughout Canada, but this protection zone is a fairly unique concept that we've built into this bill.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON
Thank you. I appreciate that.
I'm changing gears here as I promised. On the water quantity standard, I think it's important to ensure, obviously, that the quantity of water meets the needs of the community. I've heard concerns from some first nations about how those needs are defined, such as leaving out agriculture, as an example, in the standard. I'm curious how that list of needs was determined by the department.
5:30 p.m.
Acting Director, Legislation, Engagement and Regulations Directorate, Department of Indigenous Services
This was a key area of work with our first nation partners. As you'll notice from the first draft that was released publicly and is still online, as well as the second draft, and then what was introduced in Parliament, there have been substantial changes to those standard pieces that took direct input from first nations and applied them to the bill that's with you today.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON
Okay. Could you speak to how the quantity for current and future needs would be determined?
