Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 6th, 2024

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Okay.

Again, this goes back to what I mentioned earlier when we said that this was going to be an issue back when we were discussing that very important piece of legislation. We agreed to the principles. We agreed with the vision. We agreed with everything in that UN declaration and the implementation legislation.

What we had an issue with was the definition, or lack thereof, of “free, prior and informed consent”, and we knew this was going to be a problem—maybe not right away but maybe years down the road. Sure enough, as I said earlier, Bill C-53 came along. Because that was not defined—and we heard it many times as witness testimony—nobody was really clear on what was going on.

I agree with Mr. Zimmer. We could be sending this into a battle in the courts at some point because a bunch of things, important terms, are not defined, especially “free, prior and informed consent”.

Again, I go back to Bill C-53. There are groups threatening court action on Bill C-53. I know it's in limbo right now, but at the same time, there are groups threatening court action. Why? It's because it was not defined at the time. We did not do our work. Of course, it was rushed through by the other parties. Nobody wanted to take the time to get it right.

Again, we're having major issues with some definitions. I would like to know, hopefully—or get a sign from someone in the room—that we will be getting to a definition at some point so that we know exactly what it is we are talking about, not some aspirational document that doesn't really define what source water protection zones are or what a protection zone is or what source water is. This is a piece of legislation that is severely lacking if we don't do our work here—absolutely severely lacking.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you, Mr. Schmale.

Next, I have Mrs. Atwin and then Ms. Idlout.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just quickly, on the Department of Justice website, there's a public backgrounder for the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which details:

More specifically, [free, prior and informed consent] describes processes that are free from manipulation or coercion, informed by adequate and timely information, and occur sufficiently prior to a decision so that Indigenous rights and interests can be incorporated or addressed effectively as part of the decision making process—all as part of meaningfully aiming to secure the consent of affected Indigenous peoples.

It appears the Department of Justice has a definition that we can look to.

These are interesting arguments that I would probably like to refer back to when we come to different amendments with similar language down the line, but I appreciate seeking this clarity. We've heard from our experts that it's really just that guiding principle and we've already adopted UNDRIP, so I don't see an issue with it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Atwin.

Next, I have Ms. Idlout. You have the floor.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

First, I would like to say that, when Bill C-53 is being referred to, I don't recall what was in it. What I can recall is that Bill C-53 was not able to go through due to different factors with free, prior and informed consent. To me, it doesn't look like it will diminish the strength or make it weaker.

I support the amendments of both G-2 and what's being proposed. I support both of them because, even if they are not clearly defined, they will not create a roadblock. We are trying to plan ahead to the future. I don't know if the courts will need to define this, but even if it's brought forward to the court, I don't think it will be a roadblock.

I will support this amendment once we come to a vote on it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

Next on the speaking list, I have Mr. Schmale.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I know when I ask this question, I'm speaking more to lawyers than to the policy or the actual department, but I'm hoping, through you, Chair, that either the officials could go back to their departments and get this information or the members across the way could text their department and get this information. That would be helpful.

For the witnesses, there are huge bonus points if you know the answer to this one. It's about the national assessment completed in 2011 of the first nations water and waste-water systems. Let's test some people's memories here.

Only 54% of water systems in first nations communities had fully certified primary operators, while 81% had backup operators. The report goes on to list that:

The ability to develop and retain suitable certified operators is critical to having a well run water or wastewater system. Certified operators are more likely to operate facilities in compliance with applicable guidelines and legislation. The absence of a certified operator may impact other issues such as monitoring, reporting and record keeping, and increases the risk associated with these components.

The assessment also found that there is a lower percentage of certified operators as the remoteness of the community increased.

Has that number moved? Again, I don't expect you to know that, but perhaps someone could text the department—not now, and probably not tomorrow morning. I know we meet early and you probably won't be...but at some point I wouldn't mind knowing that because it leads me to a bunch of new questions. I pose it now because it was at the top of my mind, and there are a couple of amendments for which that answer might be key.

Thank you.

[Nelson Barbosa]

I'm happy to speak to it, quickly.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Really?

[Nelson Barbosa]

Yes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Wow.

[Nelson Barbosa]

I think you're referring to the Neegan Burnside review in 2011.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Yes. It's the national assessment.

[Nelson Barbosa]

Certainly, that was a comprehensive spot check on systems and operators. I think the question is incremental difference. I don't have the comparability on stats, but I can say a couple of things.

There has been a significant investment in operators since 2011. There has been a 400% increase in operations and maintenance. I can stand corrected, but there has been a significant increase in operations and maintenance, including reviews of operator salaries to support recruitment and retention of operators on reserve. There's been a series of third party operator trainers and supports like the circuit rider training program, which was expanded considerably since 2011.

While Neegan Burnside was an excellent spot check, I think the question is about what the difference has been. I think there has been considerable investment in first nations operators. Those are really the quiet heroes behind the scenes who support the operations and maintenance systems in all first nations communities.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you. That's some very good institutional knowledge. I do appreciate those stats. That will come in handy a little later on.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Schmale.

I guess there were some bonus points there. I think we can get a gold star if we vote the subamendment.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I don't see any more interventions.

Shall the subamendment carry?

(Subamendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Is it a majority or is it unanimous?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

It looks like unanimity.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Can you suspend for a second before we take that vote? It would be for just a second.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

For the motion as...?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

For the subamendment, we need just two seconds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

We just voted on the subamendment.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Okay. All right.