Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 5th, 2022

[Clio Straram]

My idea about funding the cost of rental for more remote communities was admittedly not my own idea. This is something that's currently happening in Quebec. I think it's a really good idea. They recognized that issue and came up with a solution, which was to provide for that funding gap. I think that's a really important one.

The other experience that we have with Quebec is financing at the first nation government level or at the indigenous government level for building multiple homes. It's not relying on a ministerial guarantee for one individual person, or for the first nation, but lending money to a first nation government to build five or 10 homes at a time, or a multi-unit building. I think I'll probably repeat a lot of what I have said already, so I'll try not to do that too much, but that is what I've been seeing in Quebec. I've been seeing really innovative ways to help alleviate some of the housing shortages.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Straram.

What setbacks have you seen?

There are many setbacks, and of course the same ones can happen just about anywhere across the country. I know this because the constituency I have the honour to represent includes several indigenous communities.

What setbacks did the financial institution you represent experience? How are you able to provide more assistance to address the housing shortage for indigenous people on reserve?

[Clio Straram]

I will bring it back to those remote communities. The cost to build in those remote regions is exceptionally high compared to communities that are more urban or located close to urban centres. You are trying to figure out a way to bring up not only the materials to build a home, and how to get them onto a truck that can drive over frozen water or make it through in the right season because of flooding issues, but also all the other materials that you have to get up there for building that home, and for just existing up there, such as diesel for an energy source.

I think that the cost of making this happen is just so inhibiting to being able to address this issue. For me, that is the biggest one, and figuring out a way to get more houses done at a lower cost is what I see as a primary focus, be that by—sorry, go ahead.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Ms. Straram, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but my time is running out quickly. I would just like to make sure I understand your response.

So you're saying that it's harder for communities in remote areas to qualify for or get funding from financial institutions, given the various costs associated with labour and transportation.

As parliamentarians, we could find solutions to make it easier for communities to gain access to these funds.

Ms. Straram, as I understand it, this is one of the major challenges. Is that right?

[Clio Straram]

Facilitating access to funding would make it more possible for these members in more remote communities. If it costs twice as much to build a home up north and you're earning the same income, it's twice as expensive for you, so we have to either reduce the costs or increase the funding source to cover that cost differential.

To reduce cost, that's where I suggest building multiple homes at one time, because you're really getting economies of scale. If you're building five or 10 homes at once, you can use the same architects and contractors, and you can haul up more materials in one order. All of that reduces the per unit cost.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

That's what I thought.

In that case, I will speak again later.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

We'll now go to Ms. Idlout.

Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, everyone. First of all, I welcome you, and I have enjoyed your presentation.

I will ask both of you, and you can reply separately. In my riding of Nunavut, there are only four banks. I hear from my constituents the challenges they experience just with basic banking. Given these realities, how does your bank meet the needs of indigenous people who lack physical access to do things such as apply for a mortgage? If they needed assistance and needed to borrow money to buy a house, how do you assist them in the remote communities?

[Tracy Antoine]

I can go first if you like, Clio.

RBC, where it is possible, sets up agency banks. That gives an opportunity to have face-to-face access with a person to do the loan applications. If there is connectivity or bandwidth for virtual appointments, we will do mortgage applications through remote account opening. We do mortgage applications after we have been able to set up a program or decide with the first nations leadership which programs they want to use that are available to Nunavut communities.

We will also go to communities, travel in and do paper applications, and then, where there is no bandwidth for connectivity to the Internet, we will make sure those get loaded in, that applications are processed, and then there's another trip back into the community to meet the individuals on an as-needed basis.

We will also do appointments through the telephone, but it takes a lot of connectivity with the first nations leaders to make sure there's no fraud occurring in the community.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Go ahead, Ms. Straram, if you want to answer as well.

[Clio Straram]

Thank you.

A lot of my answers will be similar.

Online banking is a significant thing that's happening now. I understand that there are Internet connectivity issues in some communities, so, for sure, we're aware of that. The move of everybody in the community to online banking is really the safest, most efficient approach, but we also have telephone banking, and we have a group dedicated to handling requests over the telephone.

We also have branches located across the country. Specifically in your riding, it's a similar structure, where we would seek to have everybody set up with their banking, as much as possible remotely, and then any final identification confirmation pieces would require an actual banker going into the community.

Other than that, everything can be done on a remote basis, and we strongly encourage it as well.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

Could you both respond to this next question?

When you want to take a bank loan to buy a mortgage, insurance is required. In Nunavut, it is very difficult to get insurance. How can you assist people in remote communities who need insurance if they qualify for a mortgage or a loan?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Go ahead, Ms. Antoine.

[Tracy Antoine]

Although it is difficult to get insurance through the government, there are alternative programs through Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, where mortgages can be provided through projects that are worked on in partnership with government funding, Canada Mortgage and Housing and RBC. RBC also has an insurance division that has been training and focusing on these insurance gaps as well. We work very diligently to close the gaps that are brought to our attention through our network.

We also have the on-reserve housing loan program, where getting into a mortgage is as low as 2.5% down. It isn't taking citizens of a nation or a community too long to be able to save for their down payment. I recognize insurance is something that is required to be prepaid for a lot of applications.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Straram.

[Clio Straram]

Our housing loan program does have an insurance component to it. It's negotiated with the indigenous government that we're setting the program up with. It's a requirement if the indigenous government makes it a requirement. It's not mandatory on BMO's side of the business, but it's set up as an individual term for each different community.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.

That concludes the first round of questions. Unfortunately, because of timing constraints we'll have to stop there. I'd like to thank Ms. Straram and Ms. Antoine for agreeing to provide testimony today and for answering our questions. You're important stakeholders on this important study concerning housing, so we very much appreciate you taking the time to speak to us today. Thank you very much.

With that, I'd like to suspend so we can prepare for the second panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

I'd like to welcome Professor Naiomi Metallic of the Schulich School of Law at Dalhousie University; Mr. Garry Bailey, president of the Northwest Territory Métis Nation; and Ms. Sarah Silva, CEO of the Hiyam Housing Society of the Squamish Nation.

Welcome today. I will just remind you that you may speak in the official language of your choice. We have interpretation services in English, French and Inuktitut. Please be patient with the interpretation. Sometimes it takes a while to come through. The interpretation button is found at the bottom of your screen, for English, French or Inuktitut. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately and we'll stop the proceedings so that we can correct that.

With that, I would like to invite our first speaker, Professor Naiomi Metallic, to take the microphone for a statement.

You have five minutes, Professor.

[Professor Naiomi Metallic, Assistant Professor, Chancellor's Chair in Aboriginal Law and Policy, Schulich School of Law, Dalhousie University, As an Individual]

Thank you for the invitation to speak to you today as you study this important issue.

My areas of experience on indigenous issues include learning a great deal about the chronic underfunding of essential services to first nations living on reserve, including social assistance and housing, as well as federal funding policies that have seriously contributed to the housing shortages in first nations.

That is not what I am here to speak about this evening, however, though I hope you are looking at these issues as well.

I am not here to focus on the causes of the problem, but rather to highlight a possible part of the solution, at least for Mi’kmaq and Wolastoqey communities in the Maritimes.

I am here to talk about the Dale Sappier, Clark Polchies and Joseph Gray cases that were decided by the Supreme Court of Canada in 2006. In this case the court held that Mi'kmaq and Wolastoqey peoples have the right to harvest timber for domestic use as an aboriginal right. This case has been underutilized and I think it certainly holds promise as part of the solution to the housing shortage in Mi'kmaq and Wolastoqey communities.

To explain the case, Sappier and Polchies, who are Wolastoqiyik from the Woodstock First Nation, cut 16 hardwood logs from Crown lands around the Nashwaak River watershed in New Brunswick. The men planned to use the wood for construction of Polchies' home, specifically to make the hardwood flooring and furniture consisting of tables, beds and cabinets, with any leftovers to be used for community firewood.

Gray, who is Mi'kmaq from the Pabineau First Nation, cut down four birdseye maple logs on Crown lands in the area. He planned to use the wood to make furniture, specifically cabinets, end tables and coffee tables, as well as moulding for his home.

All men were charged under New Brunswick's Crown Lands and Forests Act with unlawful possession of Crown timber from Crown lands.

The Supreme Court of Canada found that these men had an aboriginal right to harvest wood for domestic purposes on their traditional lands. This is because the evidence showed that, pre-contact, both the Mi'kmaq and Wolastoqey people used wood to fulfill their domestic needs, including for shelter, transportation, tools and fuel.

In the modern context, the court said that the practice evolved into a right to harvest wood by modern means to be used in the construction of modern dwellings. To my knowledge, first nations in the region have yet to fully seize on this right to address housing needs, but I suspect this is largely due to a lack of appetite by provincial governments to work with first nations to implement this right. More needs to be done to actualize this right.

Court decisions, by their nature, are very focused. They don't provide all the details that are necessary to be worked out in order to respect and implement inherent rights. The Supreme Court has said that it only lays down minimum standards and it is open for, and the court encourages, governments to go beyond this. There inevitably need to be negotiations, agreements and possibly even legislation to flesh out the right.

I think there is a role for Canada to play here. This could range from supporting communities with capacity and infrastructure dollars to build mills and train community members in the processing of lumber. This might also include legislating in the area. There is potentially a need to lay out parameters around the exercise of this right. Especially if the provinces are unwilling to do so, Canada has the power to do this under section 91(24) even in relation to Crown land in the province.

If the committee wants some further legal and academic sources to draw on in this regard, I would be happy to supply this.

I will end by saying that in whatever capacity Canada decides to act, collaboration with the Mi'kmaq and Wolastoqey, and recognizing their role in the management and stewardship of lumber resources is key. In the Sappier-Gray decision, the Supreme Court stressed that the right to harvest lumber for domestic use is a communal right. This acknowledges a communal management or self-government dimension to this right, not just for exploitation of the resource by individual members but the community managing the use of the resource.

This also aligns with both Mi'kmaq and Wolastoqey people's own laws that emphasize stewardship of the land and sustainable resource practices. In Mi'kmaq this is captured in the concept, Netukulimk.

With that, I will end with wela'lioq to thank the committee for the opportunity to speak with you today.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Professor Metallic.

We'll now go to our second speaker, Mr. Garry Bailey.

Mr. Bailey, you have five minutes.

[Garry Bailey, President, Northwest Territory Métis Nation]

Thank you.

As the president of the Northwest Territory Métis Nation, I'm pleased for the opportunity to appear before the standing committee on aboriginal peoples.

For a little background, indigenous Métis in the Northwest Territories—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

The interpreter is saying that the sound quality isn't good enough for the interpreters to do their job.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

I understand. We'll just pause for a second. Perhaps Madam Clerk or the IT people can see if Mr. Bailey can move his microphone so he is more understandable.

At the moment, Mr. Bailey, the interpreters don't have sufficient quality of voice to be able to translate, so we have a bit of a problem. We may have some suggestions for you.