Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 5th, 2024

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I have not, Mr. Chair. I've simply asked that the committee—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

I've made a ruling that I will keep track of the time. I have two people beside me who will watch. I have done nothing to impugn my integrity. The fact that you're still questioning that is rather frustrating.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I haven't suggested that you had, Mr. Schmale. I have simply asked for time to be made public.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Having said that, we don't want to waste any more time. If you wish to challenge the chair, we'll challenge, and we'll have a quick vote. If not, we will move on with Mr. Barrett, who has the floor.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Just so that I can confirm here, you are not agreeing to allow for the committee to be aware of how much time is being allocated.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

I have the timer right here. It's in full view of two other people.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

At any point, are you comfortable if we check in on that?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Absolutely.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you.

Mr. Barrett, you have 45 seconds. The floor is yours.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Mr. Boissonnault, while you were claiming to be indigenous, the Liberal Party was also echoing that claim on their websites and posting that you were indigenous. The ethical problems that this presents are self-evident.

I'd like to know from you, if you're aware, how much money the Liberal Party of Canada fundraised off of your false claim and their false claim that you were indigenous when that was simply false.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Mr. Barrett, I sat in the indigenous caucus as an ally between 2015 and 2019. During the 2019 election, the party mistakenly included me on a list of indigenous candidates. When I realized I was on that list, we contacted the party and had that mistake corrected.

I have never received, as a candidate in 2015, 2019 or 2021, any funding to support indigenous candidates. That is appropriate and as it should be, because I do not claim indigenous status.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you very much, Mr. Boissonnault. That completes this round of questioning.

I believe Mr. Hanley is up. Is that still correct?

Mr. Hanley, you have six minutes.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Boissonnault, for making the tremendous effort to appear before the committee today. I know this is not an easy task.

Mr. Chair, indigenous identity and heritage are obviously very important to us in the north and in the Yukon, as are the nature and practice of first nations procurement.

Mr. Boissonnault, through the chair, as the minister for tourism previously, and then for ESDC and official languages, you've been a great friend to the north and certainly a frequent and welcome visitor to the north. I have never heard you claim indigenous identity. You've always been very well received by first nations chiefs and leaders in our territory. I wanted to put that on the record.

In your testimony, you said:

I am committed to doing my best to always be clear about my history and to be a better ally for Indigenous people. I have learned much from this difficult experience and my commitment to reconciliation has never been stronger.

Those are words to take note of.

Mr. Boissonnault, I'd like you to take an opportunity to expand on what you have learned through this experience and what you can share with all of us as members of Parliament.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Dr. Hanley, I appreciate your comments.

As you mentioned, I never claimed indigenous status. I always wanted to be clear about my family's history and my own identity. I see now, in hindsight, that the term I used in the past was not as clear as it could have been, and I've learned about my own family's history in recent months. For me, I think it's a combination. I hope the committee can look at this at some point, because I think there's a nexus among identity, indigenous identity and how you talk about your heritage when there is indigenous heritage but no claim to indigenous status. I think it is important that this committee is able to have a conversation about that, elaborate on that and have experts come to the table to talk about that.

Dr. Hanley, I wanted to honour my family's history. The other option would have been to simply not talk about it, which I didn't think was right. That didn't sit well with me. That's why I wanted to refer to my family's history, but also indicate that I am non-status. I don't have indigenous status, and I don't claim indigenous status. My commitment to reconciliation and to working with indigenous peoples manifested itself in coming to the indigenous caucus and asking if they would let me sit around the table as an ally. That's what the caucus decided to do in 2015. We worked through a great number of issues together in order to defend and advance the rights of indigenous peoples. I'm happy that I was able to participate in that work.

In my own city of Edmonton, we have the fastest-growing urban indigenous population in the west, and we have a lot of work to do together. I approach that work with humility, but also with resolve, because there's a lot of work we have to do together. I'm committed to continuing to do that work. I have reached out to elders and community leaders, Dr. Hanley, to get their advice on how to talk about these matters, express myself and share my family's story in a way that can be understood but that is also sensitive and respectful not just of my family but also of indigenous peoples.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you for that, Mr. Boissonnault. I think that's very helpful, particularly your advice on what the committee can take on, probe, study further and understand.

I too am an ally and a member of the indigenous caucus, so I certainly respect and understand that position and the importance of us, as allies, being involved in indigenous concerns and issues.

You mentioned indigenous heritage, status and identity. I wonder, for the remaining time, if you can help us, through your experience, distinguish among heritage, status and identity. It's important to make that clear.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

My experience—and I think it's the case for everybody—is that identity is deeply personal, and it's important to get it right. In my case, being adopted into the family that raised me—the only family that I know—I wanted to honour their history and I wanted to do so in a way that was sensitive and respectful to indigenous peoples.

This has been a really tough couple of months for us, but now, here today, I can say that I'm thrilled for my brother and my mother to be part of the Métis Nation of Alberta and to be connected to that community. It helps me to have that clarity. We went all the way through Library and Archives Canada to see which of my ancestors actually had scrip. I have that information. I understand the genealogy completely.

I think it's important for all Canadians to be able to talk not just about their identity and who they are, but also about the heritage that they come from. As more people dug into genealogy, which we saw during the pandemic, there were revelations about people's own identities and about their own family histories that they found surprising, so here we are today.

To your earlier point, Dr. Hanley, the work of this committee could be very important in unpacking that nexus of identity, heritage and status.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you very much.

I believe we are welcoming to the committee a new Bloc member, Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné.

You have six minutes, please.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to reiterate that you have my full confidence in allocating the speaking time that you give to each person around the table.

Good afternoon, Mr. Boissonnault. Thank you for being with us today.

We took note of the apology you made in your opening remarks. Of course, it won't be up to us to determine whether that apology will suffice. That will be up to the first nations, the indigenous peoples, who felt disrespected by your behaviour.

As you know, reconciliation is founded on the recognition of first nations. Pretending that you're an indigenous person, benefiting from some of the services put in place by the government as reconciliation efforts, doing that wrongly, undermines reconciliation efforts in a way. You have to know that there were a lot of mistakes made.

You weren't just an MP; you were a minister. When a public figure of your stature does that, what message do you think it sends to first nations?

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné.

Let's be clear. I've never claimed indigenous status. I've never applied for an indigenous-only contract. My companies and I have not received one dollar of government money for indigenous-specific funding.

I want you to know that I completely agree with you. I think we need to look at the issue of pretendians. What they're doing is wrong, it's wrong, and it shouldn't be done. I'm completely on your side and on the side of the first nations, who have worked very hard to take back their rights. They have worked very hard to try to achieve some equity with non-indigenous people. We must outright denounce the fact that people are falsely claiming to be indigenous, period.

I'm not a pretendian. I've never claimed to be an indigenous person. The fact that my former business partner sent this email to the government without my knowledge is reprehensible. That's part of why I'm going to take him to court. I'm very disappointed to have learned about his actions in the media. To me, it's completely reprehensible. In fact, that's why I resigned from cabinet, so that I could take him to court and have as much leeway as possible.

I completely agree with you and with indigenous peoples. Only indigenous peoples must have access to funds reserved for indigenous peoples. In this case, the criteria and procedures in place prevented that company from receiving funding, and that's a very good thing.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

So you maintain that you had absolutely no knowledge of the fact that Global Health Imports had so-called indigenous status that allowed it to obtain public funds for several years, even during the years you were an elected official. You also maintain that you were not aware of anything and that you were not in contact with Mr. Anderson.

Do you still maintain that today?

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Yes, I stand by that, and I'd like to point out three things.

When I was a private citizen, I met with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner to check what my obligations were as a former member of Parliament under the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons.

I told him that I would not do any federal work or deal with him, either through my consulting company or my company Global Health Imports. The commissioner found that not only was it a good idea, but it was very wise. So I was very clear with all my associates that I would not do any work for the federal government, that I would have no contact with its representatives, either through contracts or other means, because it would have been inappropriate.

Second, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, when I was a private citizen, my consulting firm went through a certification process to be fully certified on LGBTQ issues. That certification process was done by a third party.

I've never run my business through a similar indigenous process, because I don't have a status—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Mr. Boissonnault, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but my time is very limited.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Okay.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I have information in front of me that GHI only changed directors on March 17, 2023.

You say you didn't benefit while you were an elected official. However, the directors information was only changed in 2023, when you had been back in office as an MP for several years.

How do you explain that?