Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 9th, 2024

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you again to our witnesses.

I want to pick up where we left off when we talked earlier about fraudulently claiming indigenous identity and about it being is wrong and harmful. I think we all agreed on that.

How does the government recover from the damage done within its indigenous communities after that?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Mr. Schmale, first of all, let me speak about what Randy needs to do and what he is committed to doing.

My understanding is that he has acknowledged and apologized for the errors, and he has also committed to meeting with indigenous people and leaders in order to ensure that he is able to rebuild trust. I think that's a personal responsibility that he has taken.

From a government perspective, I want to talk about a number of issues that have come up from a process perspective. It's ultimately about how the government put in a directory that is not self-determined by indigenous people. I believe that is the starting point for this conversation. I think, then, that we need to do greater work around the review of what is constituted and what partnership looks like. It is ultimately indigenous people who need to determine what businesses are indigenous and who should be qualifying for procurement. I believe that is the path we need to take, and it can't happen overnight.

However, in the meantime, we need to have some significant safeguards to ensure indigenous identity concerns are addressed immediately while we develop a longer-term system.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Given the fact that 1,100 fake indigenous businesses were removed from the registry.... We had Shannin Metatawabin, the executive director of the NACCA organization, saying that upwards of 70% of the listed businesses on that directory are not indigenous-owned.

What other concrete steps have been taken to ensure this registry is true?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I believe Minister Hajdu answered those questions. It is very much under her purview.

However, I will add that thinking about indigenous procurement and ensuring that there is, indeed, 5% indigenous procurement are absolutely necessary. How we get there is where I think we need to do better, as well as ensuring—especially—that those who are eligible for contracts do in fact qualify under the current procurement mandates that exist. If we need to tighten those mandates, if we need to improve them and if that 51% needs to come to 60% or 65%, that's a conversation we need to have, but we need to have it in conjunction with indigenous people.

I believe the government is very committed to moving forward to ensure we do far better on this issue, with the absolute determination that we need to increase procurement for indigenous businesses.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

The registry is still not solid. We have one indigenous organization after another saying that it isn't solid. Given the fact that “Crown-Indigenous Relations” is in the name of your portfolio, to a large extent you're the one sent in—outside of negotiating and other things—to make sure that the relationship remains solid and strong.

It has to make you uncomfortable that Randy Boissonnault is still in caucus. You're the one managing the relationships.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Go ahead on a point of order, Mr. Carr.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Coming back to this piece on relevance, I don't believe I saw a reference to “caucus” anywhere in the House instruction on the motion.

However, if we are going there, perhaps we can talk about why Karen Vecchio is not the chair of status of women anymore and why Arnold Viersen was removed from this particular committee.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

This is a bit.... You're letting this go on a little long.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. O'Toole was removed from their caucus. Maybe we can start to talk about why that is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Carr, I think you've made your point about relevance here. They are getting off relevance, as well, with the same points.

Again, I want to remind members that the study at hand is on barriers to indigenous economic development. The order is on the procurement side and the anti-reconciliatory impacts of non-indigenous businesses.

With that, I will hand the floor back over to Mr. Schmale for about 45 seconds.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order, quickly, on the same point of order, because this keeps coming up.

It might be uncomfortable for Mr. Carr's Liberal caucus, but we're talking about a case of indigenous identity fraud. We're talking to the minister responsible for the government's efforts on reconciliation. It obviously impacts those reconciliation efforts when a member of the Liberal caucus is engaged in indigenous identity fraud and whose company falsely represented itself as indigenous to try to get government contracts. He remains in the Liberal caucus. That's very different from questions about committee assignments, etc.

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

That's debate, Mr. Chair.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'd be happy not to talk about it if you didn't bring it up, Mr. Carr.

I know this is an uncomfortable subject for you. You probably have feelings about Mr. Boissonnault's indigenous identity fraud as well, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

We're getting into a debate here. Let's get back to the matter at hand.

Mr. Schmale, the floor is yours. We have about 45 seconds.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I will pose the question to the minister.

As the minister responsible for Crown-indigenous relations, are you comfortable with Randy Boissonnault still being in caucus?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I believe Mr. Boissonnault is taking the right steps in order to work with people he knows and to gain the trust of indigenous people. I will leave it to him to clear his name. He has been at committee before. He has answered the questions and concerns posed to him.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Do you have trust in the indigenous procurement program in the way it's set up now?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I believe it needs to be better.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Schmale.

Next, we'll be moving to Mr. McLeod for for five minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I had to smile when a number of MPs made the comment that membership for the Métis was anything but complex and straightforward.

My family was in the Northwest Territories and living on Big Island in 1778 when Peter Pond showed up. My family was living in a Métis community well before the Red River Métis were established in 1869, but my family is not allowed to belong to the Métis National Council or any of the Métis national organizations.

I have three brothers and a sister that belong to different organizations. My sister belongs to the NTMT Métis Nation. One of my brothers belongs to the North Slave Métis Alliance. I belong to the Dehcho First Nations. We're all brothers and sisters. I'm in a land claim and my sister's in a land claim, but my brother, who's North Slave Métis, is not allowed to settle a land claim—yet we're all brothers and sisters.

It's anything but easy and simple. It is going to take a lot of time to sort out definitions.

I want to ask Minister Petitpas Taylor, while I have the opportunity, about the veterans affairs committee. I want to ask about the study that's being done that focuses on the experiences of indigenous veterans.

I want her to share some observations. I raise the point because I had an uncle who went to war. He hitched up his dog team in my community, went across Great Slave Lake and caught a flight out of Hay River to Fort Smith. He went through a lot of trouble to go fight in a war. He survived the war, but he never came back.

I'm really interested in this study, because we don't know what he did. We have no history of him. We don't know what position he held. We don't know if he was wounded. On Remembrance Day, when we're asked to speak, I can point to the fact that I had an uncle who went to war, but I don't know anything about him, because he never came back. He came back to Canada and stayed in B.C., where the government gave him some land.

Can you elaborate on this initiative you're working on?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Yes. Thank you so much, Michael, for that question.

This study, I believe, came about through one of the Bloc Québécois MPs who was really interested in doing a deep dive when it came to indigenous veterans and to Black veterans as well. Many individuals appeared before the committee and made it very clear that many of our indigenous veterans and Black veterans faced discrimination when they served in the First World War and Second World War, and it continues today. Many of the veterans returned home and did not get access to the services, the benefits, that their other colleagues received.

As a result, the committee has embarked on this study. I know where the committee is landing and that they've heard some recommendations from witnesses who have appeared. A few recommendations that we've heard so far are that it is really important to make sure that indigenous veterans are included in commemorative events and that we have indigenous representation there when events are going on, either in Canada or internationally.

This year in Montreal we hosted a two-day summit, and I'm pleased to say that 11% of the veterans who were present were indigenous and provided us with their points of view and also what was needed for them.

They've also made it very clear that veterans need to be made aware of the services and benefits they're entitled to. Many indigenous veterans live in isolated and remote communities, and as a result, Veterans Affairs Canada created a veterans engagement team. We go into communities 12 times a year—isolated and remote communities—and make sure that we can meet with people, meet with veterans, and make sure they're aware of what services and benefits they're entitled to.

We've also heard about having a directorate with a list of our veterans and making sure that we don't forget their stories and that we can identify who these veterans are as well. Once again, these are heroes whom we have to remember and celebrate, and it's truly important to make sure that the proper investments and energies are put in place to make sure that we can identify who these individuals are.

I've had the great pleasure and honour of meeting with many indigenous veterans, and when they share with me their stories, it's heartbreaking sometimes. We need to mend that. As a department, we are serious in wanting to have meaningful engagement and meaningful relationships with the communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. McLeod. That completes the second round of questioning.

We're going to begin the third round of questioning, starting with the Conservative Party.

I believe the first person that we have on the speaking list here is you, Mr. Falk, and I'll hand the floor over to you for five minutes.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our ministers for attending our committee.

Minister Anandasangaree, are you familiar with Jordan's principle?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Yes, I am.