Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 10th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 137 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

As always, I want to start by acknowledging that we are gathered on the ancestral and unceded territories of the Algonquin Anishinabe people and by expressing gratitude that we're able to do the important work of this committee on lands that they've stewarded since time immemorial.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 1, 2022, and the order of reference of Tuesday, November 19, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of the barriers to indigenous economic development.

I would like to welcome our witness today. We have Chief Lance Haymond from the Kebaowek First Nation. Thank you very much for attending this morning.

To start, Chief, you will have five minutes for your opening statement, and then we'll proceed to questions from members of the committee.

Chief Haymond, I'll turn the floor over to you.

[Chief Lance Haymond, Kebaowek First Nation]

Thank you very much and good morning.

First, I'd like to acknowledge that after getting an invitation on Friday, preparing for and showing up on a Tuesday morning has been a pretty tall task, but given the importance of this issue and how it directly implicates my community and nation, I could not miss an opportunity to speak to it.

I know that many people are coming here and speaking about the impacts that pretend Indians have on securing contracts through procurement. As a chief, I want to speak a bit about the broader impacts of pretend Indians and what they do to communities and nations.

As mentioned, I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge that we are on the traditional territory of my ancestors. We're always happy to welcome everyone here to conduct their business given its importance.

We are here to discuss an issue of profound importance, which is the impact of individuals who falsely claim indigenous identity, or pretend Indians, on the inherent and treaty rights of first nations peoples. The phenomenon is not a mere abstract concern, but has real, tangible consequences that undermine the rights and sovereignty of indigenous communities across the country.

I want to go further and say that a large part of the problem is federal policy. It is to blame for the upswing in fake Indian institutions like the Métis Nation of Ontario and the Algonquins of Ontario, thus allowing individuals tied to these corporations to pretend to be something they are not, exercise section 35 rights that they don't have and, of course, extract benefits that they are not entitled to.

The federal government has created and funded pretend Indian organizations like the Algonquins of Ontario as they serve a useful purpose. They are used to manufacture consent when the real rights holders demand that the government honour its obligations under the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, including free, prior and informed consent.

The issue of recognition and protection of inherent rights is, or should be, paramount to any Crown government regarding sovereign indigenous peoples and the relationship between us. Unfortunately, there are still many flaws in our relationship with the Crown. Continued colonial and unilateral policy creates new Indians, like the Algonquins of Ontario, under different rules than those that we must follow. It's a lack of true recognition of our self-determination rights to decide for ourselves who are the Algonquin Anishinabe of our nation.

The federal Indian Act has caused confusion and has misinformed generations because the Indian Act has disconnected our people from their true indigenous governments. The problem here has been the century and a half of Indian Act rules and ignoring indigenous human rights to self-determination or simply running roughshod over them when it was convenient.

When individuals falsely claim to be indigenous, they are not just engaging in cultural appropriation; they are exploiting these rights for personal, financial or social gain. This has direct consequences on the lives of real indigenous people. False claims can distort policy discussions, divert resources and even undermine the legitimacy of the rights we are fighting to protect. Those who falsely identify as indigenous can often gain access to funding, scholarships, employment and other benefits that are rightly reserved for first nations.

The consequences of this harm are wide-reaching. False claims can undermine the work of indigenous leaders like me who are advocating for meaningful policy change, like improving housing outcomes, developing resources and protecting land, as in the ongoing legal fight we have against the Canadian government to stop a nuclear waste dump from being built beside the Ottawa River.

These claims create confusion and division within the broader Canadian society, hindering true reconciliation and the understanding of what it means to be indigenous in this country. In addition, the rising trend of pretend Indians further complicates efforts to protect our rights in court. When people falsely claim a connection to indigenous identity, it erodes the credibility of legitimate claims and weakens the voices of people whose rights have been historically ignored, violated and stripped away.

It is therefore vital that we remain vigilant in defending the integrity of our cultures and histories and that we call out false claims for what they are. This is not just about protecting the rights of individuals; it's about protecting the rights of our future and our nations.

Meegwetch. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Chief.

We'll move into our first round of questions, a six-minute round, starting with Mr. Schmale.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Chief Haymond. It's great to see you here at committee again. I know this is not your first time. This is old hat for you, appearing before committee.

The first question I have builds on the words you just gave us. Given what has happened with Randy Boissonnault, do you feel it's appropriate that he remain in the Liberal caucus?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

That's a pretty interesting question. I really don't delve into politics per se, but given that somebody has misrepresented themselves, there definitely have to be consequences. What they should be are to be determined by others rather than me, but I feel there definitely need to be consequences for people who misrepresent themselves, abuse the fact that they are not indigenous and reap benefits from that representation.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

In your words, you were pretty clear that harm was done not only to you, your nation and your people, but to indigenous people, in particular, by Randy Boissonnault, who co-owned a company that claimed indigenous status. He claimed he had indigenous status when in fact he did not. That does harm to reconciliation, does it not?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

It does. Again, it taints the image of individuals who are legitimately working hard to advance their entrepreneurship and the business opportunities they've created.

When people misuse and abuse, sometimes it reinforces misconceptions that currently exist about first nations. Being first nations is a tough job and a tough reality as it is, but when people misuse benefits that are set aside for us, it gives the impression that we all may be like that, and that's really, truly unfair. Most indigenous entrepreneurs I know work really hard and struggle, because we don't have access to the same tools and resources that non-indigenous businesses do in a lot of cases.

Yes, it's detrimental to our reputation for sure.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I'm sure you're quite aware that the government has a set-aside target to award 5% of government contracts to indigenous-owned businesses. I have no doubt that you heard the news recently that 1,100 businesses that were wrongly on that directory have been removed. I think that speaks to the fact that the issue of falsely claiming indigenous identity is a lot bigger than the average person understands.

[Chief Lance Haymond]

Absolutely. This committee has been focused a lot on the issues of procurement and people accessing contracts, benefits and other opportunities that they're not entitled to, but as I've indicated, that's the tip of the iceberg. The larger problem is that we have institutions and corporate entities representing and pretending that they are indigenous people and indigenous nations, like the Algonquins of Ontario.

They push legitimate first nations and communities like mine to decide...because suddenly they're at the forefront. They're being requested to participate in consultations, and their interests are very much different from those of real Algonquins. We want to look at a particular project, understand the impacts and protect the environment at all costs. Entities like the Algonquins of Ontario will give consent simply for a few contracts of pre- and post-monitoring, so it really is a much larger problem than this committee is looking at.

When the government sanctions and creates these entities for the sole purpose of usurping our rights, we definitely have a problem.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

One of the questions we asked yesterday—and we didn't really get an answer, though it's been said a few times—was about an indigenous woman, Jody Wilson-Raybould, standing up to the Prime Minister and saying no to corruption. She was removed from caucus. Now we have a non-indigenous man, a white man, who claimed to be indigenous, and it's come out that it was false. He did so for many years, and he still remains in caucus. It seems that there's no punishment for Liberals.

[Chief Lance Haymond]

No, it appears that there's a double standard. If that is the consequence for Madam Wilson-Raybould, then the consequences should be the same across the board and they should apply to Mr. Boissonnault as well.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

What can we do as we look to go to 5%—maybe more, who knows—for indigenous-owned businesses? How do we ensure that the registry is true?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

It's been said by others before me, and I'm sure it will be said by others after. In my opening remarks, I was clear that at the end of the day, first nations have to be in charge and determining ourselves what these businesses are and the criteria they meet.

I am a proponent of ensuring that benefits go to those who are rightly deserving of them, but at the same time, I don't want a process that's overbearing and cumbersome for our indigenous entrepreneurs and that ultimately detracts from and adds additional costs to becoming part of an organization that will be created. At the end of the day, we need some type of registry system developed, managed and implemented by first nations.

Even sitting here today, it's a tough conversation to be in when I'm talking about our citizenship and who has the right to determine. As I've indicated, it should be us, but here we are in front of a number of non-indigenous parliamentarians, and we're talking about first nations citizenship, which really should be our exclusive authority and debate.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Chief.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Schmale.

We're moving next to Mrs. Atwin for six minutes.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much, Chief, for being here. I know how busy you must be on a day-to-day basis, and I respect so much that you've come to be with us today to speak about this important topic.

I lament a few of the inefficiencies in this study, and I go to the government operations committee, where we'll also be looking into this issue. However, I think it's really important that we continue the discussion on economic development, so I very much welcome a return to studying that. I was chair of the committee when we commissioned the original study, and we heard from many voices on these important issues.

I come to this place as a former educator. I remember working with my students specifically on career development and skill building, for example, and many times students who were from certain communities were told not to put their home addresses on their résumés because it would indicate that they were from a reserve and they may not be hired based on that fact. Really, a barrier we saw in a big way was racism in society in general when it came to indigenous people looking for work or even starting businesses or becoming entrepreneurs. The 5% procurement strategy is meant, in a way, to deal with some of the barriers that existed or continue to exist today in Canada, unfortunately.

We also see, though, that integrity has to be there because we want real indigenous businesses and entrepreneurs to be the ones to benefit from these programs and set-asides. That's very much what we're discussing today.

Do you know of any companies in your area that are in the indigenous business directory?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

No.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Do you know of any shell companies acting in bad faith or misrepresenting indigenous identity in your area that may be in the indigenous business directory?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

No, not off the top of my head. I know of a number of legitimate businesses that currently benefit from opportunities through the 5% set-aside, and legitimate indigenous businesses that are securing contracts and creating gainful employment for first nation citizens and non-first nation professionals as well.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

That's what it's supposed to do, so I'm happy to hear that, for sure.

Speaking specifically for your community and the economic development planning that's happening, how big of an issue is indigenous identity fraud when it comes to that aspect?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

The larger issue for us is pretend Indians taking economic opportunities, but not in the same senses as you've described. As I mentioned earlier, our community owns a number of businesses, and none of them require us to look for contracts through the procurement process. However, I know other companies that benefit greatly from the set-aside. In fact, my wife works for an indigenous company in Ottawa that absolutely benefits from the procurement strategy that exists.

The bigger challenge always is ensuring the legitimacy of companies that are able to register. As an example, our tribal council, the Algonquin Anishinabeg Nation Tribal Council, as you're probably aware, registered to become part of the procurement strategy, and when it came time to produce proof, they simply had to upload a picture of a rabbit, I believe, and there was no verification.

The larger challenge is that this system is not monitored and there's nobody checking it on a regular basis to ensure that registered companies are legitimate indigenous companies for the purpose of benefiting from the procurement set-aside.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Do you think it represents a challenge for the tribal council specifically that oftentimes when you're registering as an indigenous business for the directory, you have to provide an individual's identification, like a status card or maybe a Métis nation card? Do you think it could have been part of the issue that a tribal council represents a collective, so there wouldn't be one piece of identification that represents it?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

Yes, that is exactly the point. The website and registration are geared towards recognizing individuals and not collective entities like tribal councils, which sometimes represent multiple first nations communities, like the Algonquin.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

I'd like to highlight, as one of our colleagues, Mr. Schmale, mentioned, that 1,100 businesses were removed from the directory. To me, that looks like checks and balances are happening.

We've learned through witnesses here and at the government operations committee that there are many reasons for that. It could be that the structure of a business has changed. We heard from one witness that he continues to conduct business but is not in the directory because his status card was expired at the time. There are multiple reasons this might be happening.

I have about 30 seconds, but we're looking for some concrete recommendations moving forward. You've mentioned some specifically, I think, with regard to consultations on broader policy. That's really interesting and we need to look into it, but is there anything else we could do today to strengthen the integrity of the system to maintain the 5% procurement strategy?

[Chief Lance Haymond]

It will come back to ensuring that first nations themselves are in charge of the system. When a system is designed and developed by government for government purposes, sometimes down the road it needs to change.

In this case, it's absolutely clear that we need a system in place that allows us to recognize legitimate indigenous businesses and individuals so they are not put in a situation where they are competing against other businesses that, for all intents and purposes, are unfairly accessing these opportunities.

Any system going forward that we are in charge and in control of and that allows for legitimate businesses to register should eliminate, by and large, fraudulent businesses that are simply taking advantage of a situation like the 5% set-aside.