Evidence of meeting #137 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was businesses.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU
Thank you so much.
I'll shift my questions a little bit. Can you speak to what sort of credentials a person or institution may need to undertake ancestry research? I'm asking this because my next question will be about how the government should approach the act of research and on what merit they should trust research that is done.
Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
In keeping with what Mr. Pelletier was saying and what President Obed was saying, I think the government can put confidence in actual indigenous peoples who verify claims. We heard here that the MMF has its own process for verifying Red River Métis businesses. I think having confidence in the ways in which indigenous people themselves are determining their citizens is important for the government to practice.
For most of the claims being made that I and many others qualify as being indigenous identity fraud, people don't bring anything forward. There's nothing. It's really just a story they have. It's a belief they have. They don't bring a first nation forward. They don't bring forward belonging to a particular Inuit government. They're very vague and evasive. Right away this raises red flags.
I think it's possible to have verification in place that relies on indigenous governments and on having maybe a few people who have certain expertise for those claims that might fall a little bit outside of those. Really, we're talking about a small number of claims that could be legitimate that wouldn't already be recognized by indigenous peoples through their governments and other organizations.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Ms. Idlout.
We're going to move into our second round here. Given the timing, it will be a shorter round. We'll have two and a half minutes for each party, and we'll start with the Conservative Party.
Mr. Shields.
Conservative
Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB
Mr. Leroux, I appreciate your earlier comments, both your presentation and your answers, but specifically, what's the political gain? You said that there was a variety, but what's the political gain, in your opinion, in claiming indigenous status?
Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
With regard to the political gain, well, I mean, you were mentioning some other members of Parliament and some people who are running to be members of Parliament. In those cases, I think those individuals are trying to mobilize as much political capital as they can to gain supporters, so I think it's useful in certain contexts, particularly in certain ridings, to falsely claim to be indigenous. It's not just that it might bring indigenous people to vote for you; it might also bring other Canadians who think that it might help with questions of reconciliation or whatever the case is. I think there's certainly political advantage in a general sort of appeal in certain ridings.
In terms of other political advantages, I briefly spoke about the organization in Quebec that gets funded by the federal government to build indigenous social housing. That organization is very powerful politically. Its leader, the president, who's not an indigenous person, mostly has family members as board members. He basically funnels the money through a mall that he owns. He also has a large ranch in the town that he lives in, and this has all been reported in the news repeatedly. That individual actually benefits greatly, as do his family, friends and allies in that particular community in Quebec. He's a kingmaker, right? That funding comes in, and it gets used in all kinds of different ways that aren't just about social housing, but the housing generally goes to non-indigenous people. So, in some cases, it allows individuals to have some sorts of political levers, I guess you could say.
In the book that I published in 2019, I explain how some individuals started to identify as Métis in parts of Quebec, and they became presidents of organizations that have 5,000 members, right? They, all of a sudden, are able to meet with members of provincial Parliament. They're able to meet with individuals who they never would have before when they weren't indigenous and weren't leading an “indigenous organization”. Sometimes there are movements in society that oppose land claims, etc., so these organizations will often find an audience with those Canadians who see an effort to sort of undermine first nations.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Shields.
Next we'll go to Ms. Bradford for two and a half minutes.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses today. I found it a fascinating discussion.
Mr. Pelletier, can you describe the process of obtaining citizenship and how long on average it takes?
Senior Economic Advisor to the President, Manitoba Métis Federation
Thank you, Ms. Bradford, for the question.
On the timeline, it's dependent on volume of demand, right? As mentioned in a previous response, we do have a queue in our citizenship process right now, in that we have tremendous interest from across the country—across the world, in fact—in citizenship with us for individuals who have ancestral ties to where we are.
In terms of process, I'd articulated that, but I'm happy to provide further on that.
There's an application process that comes into the MMF. It has, along with it, a series of questions and responses. Also, then, there is a supporting documentation requirement around genealogy. That genealogy is provided by a third party and, in many instances, it's provided by the St. Boniface Historical Society. Oftentimes, we'll see a connection to an issuance of scrip or the like. There's further review within our process.
I should share a quick personal note, maybe, because there are questions about the registry of indigenous nations and and how those are kept. Prior to joining my other government, the Manitoba Métis Federation, I worked for 23 years as a federal public servant with Canada. I worked in ministries that had responsibilities for social insurance number issuance, passport issuance and immigration, including supporting documentation.
I must say that since joining the MMF three and a half years ago, the central registry process under the lead minister at the MMF is on par with any of Canada's programs relative to the types of identification and citizenship elements that we're talking about. That's a testament to the direction and the strength of the leadership of our government as well as our administration.
December 10th, 2024 / 12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
That's great to know.
Getting back to the process, once a person has an application, they work up to their turn in the queue. Provided they have all the documentation you need in place—and I know that's sometimes difficult and there's a back-and-forth—what would, from start to finish—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I'm sorry, Mr. Pelletier. Could we have a very short answer, please? We're over the time.
Senior Economic Advisor to the President, Manitoba Métis Federation
I think there's a clarification needed on the question.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
I just wondered how long it would take, once the person's application is before you, to process it from start to finish.
Senior Economic Advisor to the President, Manitoba Métis Federation
Yes, again, it's dependent on how much demand there is in the queue.
I will say that at the end of the process there is a citizenship card issued to the citizen. At that point, they get confirmation of their citizenship.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Ms. Bradford.
We will now go to Mr. Lemire for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Leroux, first of all, I want to thank you for your very relevant contribution to this study, as well as for your book Ascendance détournée : Quand les Blancs revendiquent une identité autochtone. In fact, it might be interesting for you to send it to the committee, so that it can analyze it as part of this study.
How do you explain the fact that the provincial and federal governments have not verified things like membership registries and membership criteria?
How do you explain the lack of shared history among first nations members of the Métis Nation of Ontario and the Métis Nation of Alberta, which was recognized yesterday as Otipemisiwak Métis Governement? There was a name change.
Are name changes frequent in these realities, from the moment there is an unfavourable judgment?
My last question is this. Yesterday, Minister Anandasangareesaid that Bill C‑53 would never be introduced in Parliament again or that it would be surprising if it were.
Consequently, do you think this is a step in the right direction?
Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, I think it is a step in the right direction.
What surprises me the most—I believe this touches on the subject of your first question—is that the federal government did not check the records in this case, it did not do all the necessary checks on the Métis Nation of Ontario, or MNO, and its claims. The same is true in the case of the Government of Ontario, which recognized the MNO's six new communities in 2017 without checking the evidence.
So it is surprising that we are making laws that will recognize various rights and harm first nations in Ontario. Since the recognition of the MNO in 2017, it has already done harm.
These decisions seem more and more purely political. The MNO and the NunatuKavut Community Council, or NCC, seem to have representatives who are quite favourable to their interests, in short, the federal government seems to be listening to them. That is quite surprising.
When you look at the evidence, you see that the claims of southern Inuit identity and the claims of Métis identity in Ontario are invalid. Before even proposing a new version of Bill C‑53, the government should really take the time to check what is behind the claims of these two organizations in particular; it now has the time to do so.
The government should also have a clear policy on employment and identity fraud.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire.
For our last questioner for this panel, we'll go to Ms. Idlout for two and half minutes.
NDP
Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU
Qujannamiik.
My question is for you, Darryl.
First of all, thank you for reminding me of a time in my life before I joined politics. I was very privileged to have met a professor by the name of Willie Ermine. I'm not sure if you've heard of him, but he's a professor at the First Nations University of Canada in Saskatchewan. Much of his work is regarding ethical space. I think, particularly in this study, what we're discussing a lot are non-indigenous people robbing indigenous space—for many reasons, some of which you spoke of earlier.
What I loved about Willie Ermine's research is that he says that there is this theoretical space between cultures and world views. A lot of his work has been focused on ethical practices in research, but because we're talking about identity, I wonder if you would consider whether ethical practices in research about ethical space could be something that we could see transferring to this work of respecting indigenous identity?
Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Thank you for that question.
I could see that happening. I would need to understand more about the working of the particular theory that you're discussing, but I could definitely see that being useful.
In the conversations I have with many of my colleagues, the question of ethics in particular comes up, the unethical nature of making these false claims to indigenous identity, and, really stealing resources from indigenous people that are meant to be reserved for indigenous people.
I think you're right to raise this question of the ethics of that and how to understand this in relation to ethics and ethical space. I would love to chat more with you about that.
Thank you.
NDP
Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU
I'll just give you the rest of my time to make concluding remarks to our committee. Do you have any recommendations for us on this study, to find ways to address barriers to economic development for indigenous peoples?
Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It has been a little unclear to me the relationship between the federal government and the CCIB. I can assure you that, with a quick scan of their membership criteria, how they decide what an indigenous business is suggests that they are recognizing thousands of non-indigenous businesses as indigenous. If you're relying on an organization like the CCIB, I think it's necessary to have a conversation with them about changing their criteria.
More generally, I think the federal government needs to show resolve when it comes to this issue, immediately. They have failed to do that so far.