Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 8th, 2022

[Chief April Martel]

For the number of statistics that we went through and just seeing the renovations and housing requirements needed, we are at a high level of poverty right now on the reserve here. We're probably looking at up to close to $8 million to $10 million just to build, and this is just modular because right now there's only a certain amount of time with the weather to actually build and bring lumber to the reserve. It will take a lot of money to build a couple of additional houses on the reserve.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Chief.

Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you very much, Mr. McLeod.

Next, we'll go to Madame Gill from the Bloc Québécois, for six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank the witnesses, Mr. Marchand, Chief Martel and Ms. Formsma, for their testimony.

We ran out of time at the beginning of the session, which is common since there is always so much to say. I would like you to tell us more.

First of all, Ms. Formsma, I would like to go back to something you said yesterday. I noticed in some of the tweets that you were doing an analysis, if not a critique, of the government's budget. We are in the middle of a committee, but yesterday there was a budget that dealt with indigenous housing. I'd like you to elaborate on what you think about what was announced yesterday.

[Jocelyn Formsma, Executive Director, National Association of Friendship Centres]

Thank you for the question.

There are record amounts of money announced for indigenous under the reconciliation framework, and a fraction of that budget has been even identified for urban. Going to Mr. Marchand's point, which we support, the CHRA, the indigenous caucus, they have a plan and we're supportive of that plan. We want to be a part of implementing that plan. We're doing it anyway. We're just not getting the resources.

Partly why some people come to the urban setting is the lack of housing and infrastructure within first nations or in the north. We absolutely support those resources going to those communities as well. They are our family. We're not in competition with each other. We're just trying to identify the need and trying to address the realities of existing frameworks and funding.

We were extremely disappointed that, considering all of the testimony, all of the information and everything we've provided to the government, to numerous departments, there was nothing really announced for urban-specific strategies. If we don't have urban-specific strategies for indigenous people, we're missing and we're choosing to leave out the vast majority of indigenous peoples. That includes in housing.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I'm going to ask you another question, Ms. Formsma. You say that money is being provided, but the amount is not enough. Given the proportion of indigenous people who live in urban areas, the $300 million for the urban area is not enough. You also say there is no strategy.

I assume you are concerned about this situation. Indeed, we need this housing now. But if we don't know where we're going, how are we going to be able to provide housing, whether it's rural, northern or urban? Is this really a concern? Do you think that developing a strategy is what should be looked at, and very quickly?

[Jocelyn Formsma]

Yes, in our pre-budget submission we took a whole-of-government approach, and we gave a really good look at what the needs are. I think we were being very reasonable in our asks. As friendship centres, we're not the only players in the game. We recognize that. We are very large and significant in terms of our network and the reach across the country.

Just to give a sense, as friendship centres, which are grassroots organizations built by and for indigenous people—Métis, first nations and Inuit—we're already subsidizing the services that we support. On average, we think it costs about $300,000 just to keep the lights on and the doors open in a friendship centre, just for that base amount. What we get is closer to, on average, about $120,000 to $150,000 per friendship centre. We're already subsidizing half of what it costs just to operate that. If you were to start the friendship centre movement and provide those grassroots supports to friendship centres for indigenous peoples across the country today, it would cost more than the—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I'm going to have to interrupt you, because I actually want to ask one of your colleagues a question related to strategies.

Thank you, Ms. Formsma. We always run out of time to ask our questions too.

My question will be addressed to Mr. Marchand.

Mr. Marchand, a strategy has been developed by the Canadian Housing and Renewal Association. I'd like you to tell us about it.

We see that everyone wants to work together, but they are also working on their own. We can see that everyone is trying to devise a strategy. Where do you think you are on that front?

Has the government taken note of the strategy you were proposing? Where do you think we should go, and how quickly?

[Justin Marchand]

Thank you, MP Gill, for the question.

We proposed a community-led housing solution. We proposed a strategy that is “for indigenous, by indigenous” for indigenous people living in urban, rural and northern areas. What we saw in the budget yesterday was a strategy that will be under the control of CMHC. Similar to what Chief Martel mentioned, we know that strategies and implementation, which are really important, are most effectively led by the people those strategies are meant to serve.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

You have time for one more quick question.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I would have liked to know if Chief Martel was also in agreement. However, I believe she did say so, as did Ms. Formsma.

So I would like to know if all three witnesses agree that this should be conducted by and for indigenous people. I would like to make it clear that the question is for all the witnesses.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Be very quick.

[Jocelyn Formsma]

Absolutely. “For indigenous, by indigenous” is us; that's our model. I think if the government is talking about a devolution of services in the urban spaces, friendship centres have a really important role to play, especially in the wraparound supports.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

I do have to go to our next member.

We have the NDP, with Ms. Idlout, for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᐋ, ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᐃᒃᓯᕙᐅᑖᖅ ᐃᓘᓐᓇᓯ ᑐᓐᖓᓱᒃᑎᒃᓱᒪᕙᑦᓯ ᐋ ᔮᔅᓯᓚᓐ ᐃᓕᑕᕆᓪᓗᐊᑕᕈᒪᕙᒋᑦ ᒪᓕᒐᓕᕆᓂᕐᒧᑦ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕆᐊᖃᑎᒋᓚᐅᕋᒃᑭ ᑕᐃᑲᓂ ᔫᓂᕘᕐᓴᑎ ᐊᑉ ᐋᑐᐊᒥ ᑕᑯᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᖁᕕᐊᒋᓪᓚᕆᑉᐸᒋ. ᐋ ᓯᕗᕐᓕᒥ ᐊᐱᕆ-ᓂᐊᖅᑕᕋ ᓇᐃᑦᑐᑯᓗᒃ ᑕᐃᓐᓇ ᐋ ᑮᓇᐅᔭᑦ ᐊᑐᕐᓂᐊᕐᓂᕋᖅᑕᐅᓚᐅᖅᑐᑦ ᒐᕙᒪᑐᖃᒃᑯᓐᓄ ᐋ ᐅᖃᓕᒫᓚᐅᕐᒪᖔᑦ-ᓯᐅᒃ, ᐄᓘᓐᓃᑦ ᐋᒡᒐᓘᓐᓃᑦ, ᓇᐃᑦᑐᒥᒃ ᐃᓘᓐᓇᓯ ᑭᐅᔪᓐᓇᕈᑦᓯ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I'd like to welcome you all.

Jocelyn, I'd like to greet you personally, as I went to law school with you at the University of Ottawa.

First, I will ask a short question. The 2022 budget was presented yesterday. Have you read it and researched it thoroughly for aboriginal benefits?

[English]

[Jocelyn Formsma]

Yes, we have. We have an analysis that our team has been working on. We're going to be publishing it later today.

We're encouraged to see the investments in indigenous communities, absolutely. We hope they're going to lead to meaningful change. However, we've been very critical that with what was announced, the distinctions-based approach is going to leave people behind and leave people out. Also, they don't have any plan for urban-specific strategies. I think those are two major gaps that need to be closed if the funding that's announced is going to achieve what they hope it will achieve.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᐋ, ᑕᒪᕐᒥᒃ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐋ ᐅᖃᕆᐊᖅᑐᖅᑐᑦ ᑕᒪᕐᒥᒃ ᑭᐅᔪᓐᓇᖅᑎᑕᐅᑉᐸᑕ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

If I could have the other speakers respond to my question, that would be great.

[English]

[Justin Marchand]

Sure. I'll jump in.

Yes, we've reviewed the budget with respect to indigenous housing. As I mentioned earlier, the budget indicated that the funds were to co-develop a strategy, something that has already been done. We feel it would be a much better use of resources to actually implement an urban, rural, northern indigenous housing strategy than to further study the issue the strategy of which has already been developed. We're ready to go and we've let the government know that over the last six years. We would like the government, again, to follow the advice of the Parliamentary Budget Officer and provide sufficient funding to the indigenous people, who are best suited to deliver the housing that indigenous people need.

[Chief April Martel]

I want to thank everyone for the budget, but we did have a strategic plan here in the Northwest Territories. Everyone was on board with strategic planning, but we want to see the building of houses now because it is summertime, so, by the time we get the federal funding dollars flowing to the Northwest Territories, it's going to take a while, and we have to be planning on building our home, building the pad. We have to acknowledge that the weather, climate change and all that has an effect on the budget. If they can acknowledge that, that would help a lot.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᑕᒪᕐᒥᒃ ᑭᐅᕌᓂᖅᐸᑕ, ᐊᑕᐅᓯᖅ ᓱᓕ, ᐃᓐᓇ ᐊᑎᖓ ᐳᐃᒍᖅᓱᒍ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Did they all respond?

One person, I believe—I forget the name—may want to respond, the last speaker from the friendship centres.

[English]

[Kelly Benning]

Our response was given by Jocelyn Formsma, our executive director. I will reiterate that the National Association of Friendship Centres has offered and remains committed to playing a role in ensuring that funds are administered by indigenous people for indigenous people and organizations.

Thank you.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Do I have time to ask another question?

I can wait until the next one.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

You have a minute and a half left.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I don't have time to speak with my interpreter, so I'll just ask this quick question.

We've been told various times that flexibility is one of the major needs from different organizations and institutions. To all the witnesses, what does flexibility look like for you?

[Jocelyn Formsma]

Perhaps I could jump in quickly.

We saw what flexibility could do under the indigenous community support fund that the friendship centres have been allocating over the past two years. This was the most flexible funding we have ever seen. It allowed our local friendship centres to come up with solutions that really met the needs of the community members in real time without the typical restrictions of programs, without the typical restraints. We were able to [Technical difficulty—Editor] what we would have done to respond to community. [Technical difficulty—Editor] flexibility that's really worked for us.