Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 26th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Good afternoon.

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 15 of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

Welcome to all of you who are replacing members who can't attend today.

We're gathered here today on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

Before we get started, I would like to deal with a couple of quick housekeeping matters. The first has to do with the budget for the third study, which is on the non-insured health benefits program. I would like to get your feedback on whether that budget proposal is acceptable.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

I so move.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

It's unanimously accepted.

The second thing is the approval of the work plan for that third study on non-insured health benefits. You will have received that work plan. As you will have noted, witnesses are scheduled to appear for the first five sessions. Six sessions are reserved.

I should point out that in the first session we have ministers Hajdu and Vandal. Minister Vandal's office, at this point, is not scheduling his appearance, but Minister Hajdu has agreed to come. If it's judged to be appropriate, perhaps members from Minister Vandal's office will be able to come as well.

Other than that, I would like to see if you will so move the work plan for the third study? Are there any problems?

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

I so move.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

That is approved.

Thank you to the committee.

Today we are wrapping up our second study, which focuses on the effects of the housing shortage on indigenous peoples across Canada.

Today we will be hearing from Mr. Garry Bailey, president of the Northwest Territory Métis Nation, and from Mr. Joseph Quesnel, senior research associate at the Frontier Centre for Public Policy.

At 4:30 we will have a steering committee meeting, which will be in camera.

Just as a reminder, I think we're expecting the bells to ring at 5:15.

Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for physical distancing and mask use. I trust that everyone will follow the rules.

To ensure an orderly meeting, we have the usual reminders.

Members or witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services in English, French and Inuktitut are available for the first part of today's meeting. Please be patient with the interpretation. There may be a delay, especially since the Inuktitut has to be translated into English first before it can be translated into French, and vice versa. The interpretation button is found at the bottom of your screen. You all know where that is.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you're on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

We'll do the usual rounds. First of all we'll hear from the two witnesses. They will speak for five minutes each and then we'll proceed with the first round. That will consist of six minutes for each of the four parties.

Without further ado, I would now like to invite Mr. Bailey to start us off.

Mr. Bailey, you have five minutes.

[Garry Bailey, President, Northwest Territory Métis Nation]

Thank you.

As president of the Northwest Territory Métis Nation, I am pleased to have the opportunity to appear before the standing committee on aboriginal peoples.

Here is some historic background on the indigenous Métis of the Northwest Territories.

We have a distinct history, culture and way of life separate and independent from the Dene people, with whom we share relations. Indigenous Métis helped establish Fort Resolution in 1786, which is the oldest community in the Northwest Territories, as well as other NWT communities. The Métis nation was the backbone of the Hudson Bay Company trading network throughout the NWT and beyond, including Fort Rae, Fort Resolution, Fort Smith, Hay River and area, Rocher River, Fort Reliance, Fort Fitzgerald, Salt River, etc. Languages spoken by the indigenous Métis include Chipewyan, Cree, French, Slavey and Michif.

The Métis nation has constitutionally protected aboriginal rights. Our aboriginal rights are based upon our inherent rights as indigenous people organized as sovereign nations prior to government control. The indigenous Métis, historically and continually today, harvest wildlife, fish, migratory birds, trees and plants, in harmony with other aboriginal people.

We have three Métis councils: Fort Resolution Métis government council, Hay River Métis government council and Fort Smith Métis government council. Members of the Northwest Territory Métis Nation comprise a significant portion of the communities of Fort Smith, Hay River, Fort Resolution and Yellowknife. We estimate our membership throughout Canada to be over 3,000 members.

Regarding differential treatment in housing, our indigenous Métis members constitute a large percentage of the population in our three communities. We do not have reserve lands in our communities, thus we have never benefited from federal housing programs for first nations. We have a shortage of housing as well as overcrowding in all of our houses—particularly in affordable housing and elder housing—in our members' communities. Our neighbouring first nations cousins have benefited from ongoing annual funding from the federal government for housing. While our people are proud and have been self-sufficient, our members still have the right to be eligible for federal housing program funding.

The Northwest Territory Métis Nation is mandated to negotiate a land claim agreement and self-government agreement with the Government of Canada and the Government of the Northwest Territories, and to seek recognition of aboriginal rights. The Métis Nation is recognized by the GNWT and Canada as an aboriginal government. Despite this admission, the government does not provide core funding to the Métis nation as it does to other first nations. To date, Canada has not provided funding to the Northwest Territory Métis Nation in order to deliver programs and services, as mandated by the Daniels decision.

Regarding land claim and treaty negotiations, the Northwest Territory Métis Nation Land and Resources Agreement-in-Principle was signed in 2015. On May 19, 2021, our self-government framework agreement was signed, which includes a commitment to negotiate arrangements for housing programs. The Métis nation is actively negotiating a land claim and self-government agreement with the Government of Canada and the Government of the Northwest Territories.

Under article 21 of UNDRIP, the Métis nation has a right to the improvement of housing conditions. Article 21states:

(1) Indigenous peoples have the right, without discrimination, to the improvement of their economic and social conditions, including, inter alia, in the areas of education, employment, vocational training and retraining, housing, sanitation, health and social security.

(2) States shall take effective measures and, where appropriate, special measures to ensure continuing improvement of their economic and social conditions.

The Métis nation is still seeking to be involved in the implementation of the 2016 Supreme Court of Canada decision in Daniels v. Canada. To achieve reconciliation, the Northwest Territory Métis nation is requesting to engage in nation-to-nation discussions to address the implementation of the Daniels decision, including the provision of federal housing programs and several services for the benefit of our indigenous Métis members.

At a minimum, the Northwest Territory Métis Nation must be treated on an equitable basis with Indian bands and status Indians in respect to all aspects of federal housing programs and services and associated funding envelopes.

The Métis Nation does not receive annual or core funding for the delivery of housing programs and services to indigenous Métis members.

Last year, the Métis Nation did receive an initial amount of $6 million over four years to assist with distinction-based housing funding for our members. While this amount is appreciated, this does not adjust the gaps between our members' housing needs and the amounts appropriated annually for first nations.

We note that our membership population is at least 80% of the Akaitcho First Nation and other first nation populations in the region, yet we are receiving substantially less funding than the first nations on a per capita basis. This differential treatment must end.

The Northwest Territory—

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Bailey. Would you just wrap up at this point?

[Garry Bailey]

Yes. I have just a couple of more points.

In our recommendations, the Northwest Territory Métis Nation seeks access to federal housing programs and funds on a par with first nations to address the housing needs of our Métis members and communities.

The Métis Nation is requesting the Government of Canada to take meaningful steps to provide annual distinction-based funding to the Northwest Territory Métis Nation so that the Métis Nation can provide adequate housing programs and services to our indigenous Métis members.

That being said, it's unfortunate that I didn't get a chance to be part of the previous panel, when they talked about health care. I just want to throw this out there to Minister Hajdu that I hope she is looking at the health benefits for the Northwest Territory Métis Nation to put it on an equitable footing similar to the Akaitcho, which is throughout all of Canada and not just the Northwest Territories.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Bailey.

We'll now go to Mr. Quesnel.

Mr. Quesnel, you have five minutes.

[Joseph Richard Quesnel, Senior Research Associate, Frontier Centre for Public Policy]

Good afternoon.

My name is Joseph Quesnel. I'm a Métis research associate with the Frontier Centre for Public Policy.

Adequate housing, especially in remote and northern locations, is an intractable problem facing first nation communities. The high cost of housing in these locations and the never-ending cycle of backlogs plague reserve communities across Canada. The federal government must pledge to make housing a commitment on the same level as safe drinking water for reserves or the availability of broadband Internet.

The government's emphasis on indigenous housing seems to be on the amount of housing pledged and spent, or the number of housing units built. It's obviously good that the federal government is rolling out specific targets, however, the real focus should be on working with indigenous communities to deal with the policy and governance problems that prevent access to mass levels of market housing on reserves.

Until the government removes restrictive landownership policies on reserves, first nations and governments must find clever ways to roll out market housing. Only the private sector can deliver the high quality housing that reserves need. Government waiting lists will simply never catch up to need, especially with burgeoning populations in many communities.

One of the main difficulties is that the consensus within government circles is to transfer the management of housing, rather than fix it. First nations should lead this transformation and challenge the conviction held by many in government and many first nation leaders that the government should provide, fund and manage reserve housing. There's nothing wrong with social housing to ensure affordable access on reserves, but the answer is to move toward a shared responsibility model that brings in local governments and private lenders. Governments have a role to play in ensuring that this happens. This includes creating the legal and regulatory framework for housing markets to operate in.

Many indigenous communities have also found an optimal balance between private and public involvement in housing, such as Westbank, with its innovative lease-to-purchase housing program. These cases need to be studied.

In 2008, the Institute on Governance, a non-profit think tank—and I can provide the link—released a paper on how to improve first nation housing. Many of its insights still hold true and I believe the committee should re-evaluate those.

The first area is ensuring that housing is treated like a business. This means that day-to-day housing decisions are divorced from community politics, and it means instituting a variety of housing tenure from quasi-home ownership, to rental regimes, to rent-to-purchase, to rent subsidies. Well run indigenous housing policies also correctly view housing as a problem of governance.

In the report, which I mentioned before, the authors concluded that for housing to work on first nations, they need political will, community support and managerial and technical capacity. Indigenous communities need to accept housing as a local issue. However, housing is often the responsibility of other entities. The vast array of federal programs and policies surrounding housing on reserves means it's still viewed mainly as a government responsibility. This needs to fundamentally change.

The government must stop smothering bands with controlling policies and its “we know best” mentality. The best run indigenous housing programs have firewall policies separating elected politicians from independent housing authorities. The federal government must also reopen the conversation about market housing and private ownership on reserves. This doesn't have to be a scary conversation, like it was when the previous government opened it up, but one in which the government will help bands every step of the way. There are first nation entities and the first nation tax commission.

The IOG report, which I mentioned earlier, proposes an outside accreditation system for first nation housing in which bands would have to adopt certain governance and managerial standards to enter a housing regime. The key is that indigenous bodies run these entities and the federal government simply gets out of the way.

Governments should make way for a much more prominent, private role in housing on reserves and should encourage first nation bands to seriously address the governance problem that is at the heart of the housing issue.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Quesnel.

We'll now proceed to the first round.

I have Mr. Viersen up for six minutes.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you.

I want to thank the witnesses for joining us here today.

Mr. Quesnel, I recently read an article that you wrote, but the article, I think, was written over a year ago about the Fisher River Cree Nation. You were talking about how they had success in pursuing a land code and how that helped them to get out from underneath the Indian Act and pursue building houses and homes in their community.

Can you talk a bit about that community and how other communities can follow that model?

[Joseph Richard Quesnel]

First, I'll just stress that what I've been talking about is mainly first nations on and off reserves. That's mainly what I do. I'll let Mr. Bailey deal with any types of Métis issues.

Regarding land codes, for Fisher River First Nation, like it is with a lot of first nations that wish to enter into the First Nation Land Management Act, a lot of the challenges that come with that deal with community buy-in. It's about explaining to the community what's going on. What the First Nation Land Management Act does, which allows a community to adopt a land code, is that it allows a first nation to voluntarily opt out of 44 land management provisions of the Indian Act so that, basically, the first nation can manage its land, its management decisions and its environmental decisions.

One thing that the first nation had to work on in Fisher River and other places is convincing the membership that the first nation is still a reserve. The land can't be sold or transferred. You can't buy land; the Crown still owns it.

The other thing is that it doesn't affect treaty rights. This in no way infringes on treaty rights. It's a long process; it takes a couple of years. There's a ratification vote that has to be required on the first nation.

In Fisher River, it happened in 2020. We all know what happened around 2020-21 with COVID. The issue there was about mail-in ballots, making sure that people were able to vote. Finally, when they were able to do that, the first nation was able to ratify its own land code.

We do know that KPMG, which has done research on first nations that have opted into the First Nation Land Management Act regime, found that first nations that come under the First Nation Land Management Act and that have a land code tend to do a lot better in terms of employment and economic opportunity. The indicators show they do well over time.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you.

Your organization has published a study on the seven habits of the success of first nations, which showed that some of these indicators get a lot better. The seven things are recognizing the economic potential of land, taking advantage of local opportunities, remaining flexible through diverse investments, respecting and supporting effective leaders, running a businesslike economic government, taking control of decision-making away from INAC and a willingness to co-operate with others.

I'd like to focus on number six a little bit, on bringing decision-making more local. I think that's really where we have to go.

How have you seen first nations really take control of their own destiny in terms of housing and other areas as well?

[Joseph Richard Quesnel]

I would say first of all that the land codes themselves, the First Nation Land Management Act, are a form of sectoral self-government. It just applies to land management.

There's a whole range of ways that a first nation can leave the Indian Act. The most common that we see in Canada right now is first nations that have opted out of the Indian Act in regard to elections. The majority of first nations in Canada follow band custom elections, so they follow their own procedures. The only thing is that they lose access to the appeal process that the Indian Act provides under the indigenous and northern affairs department, but with that they can develop their own institutions.

For first nations that are still under the Indian Act, you have many governance agreements. They sit down with Ottawa and the province they're in. They're able to take back jurisdiction over some areas. As an example, in northern Ontario, in the Anishinabe governance agreement, a multitude of Anishinabe nations came together and voted on a deal. I don't know exactly how many areas there were, but they are areas that are very intimate to first nations culturally, like language, culture, education and defining who a member is whom the first nation can take back.

Working in this area for about 15 years now, we've worked with a lot of first nations, particularly on the Prairies. We've always found that for first nations, even under the Indian Act, as problematic and anachronistic as that legislation is, there are always ways they can take back control by adopting policies. First nations can pass band constitutions that allow them to create accountable institutions that can act as checks and balances, and then often, when those things are contested in court, the court will recognize those institutions that were established by the first nation. The big thing is that the first nation needs to accept these institutions and buy into them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Viersen.

Go ahead, Mr. McLeod.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to the presenters today.

My questions will go to Mr. Garry Bailey, the president of the Métis council of the Northwest Territories.

First of all, I want to say thank you, Garry, for agreeing to join us again. It's unfortunate that we couldn't get the sound system to work the last time. I'm happy that you're here to present the situation of the NWT Métis when it comes to receiving programs.

The government has made many historic announcements, when it comes to housing, to the national indigenous organizations, but it seems we never can make it work for the NWT Métis. Even the $500 million that went to the Métis National Council didn't flow to the Northwest Territories Métis. They were left out again.

I wanted to get Mr. Bailey to tell us how the Government of Canada can improve the design of their housing programs to ensure that Métis governments—like the NWT Métis, but there are also Métis in Alberta that are being left out—are able to access housing dollars when they're not represented by national indigenous organizations.

That's my first question.

[Garry Bailey]

Thank you.

I think they have to deal directly, on a government-to-government basis, with the Northwest Territory Métis Nation, for one thing. We've been lobbying for a long time. I've been involved in this for 27 years now. I've continually and always put it through that the Métis National Council does not represent the Northwest Territory Métis Nation. We are our own government. We have our own land base. We're negotiating a land claim agreement. We will own our own lands and resources.

I think that's the biggest thing they have to do: Deal with the Northwest Territory Métis Nation directly and change their policy of dealing with the national council. We're in two different territories, for one thing. The Métis National Council does not have a land base. I don't know why they deal with the Métis National Council on the housing aspect directly, but without leaving us....

I think they have to recognize all the aboriginal groups on their own. The Northwest Territory Métis Nation has pushed that issue for a long time. I'm sure the Prairie Métis—they're in Alberta as well—would prefer to do their own rather than deal with the Métis National Council. They received $500 million. We're going to receive $6 million over the next three years now, because we got some money just late in the fall. We still have problems we have to deal with as well. We're trying to settle our land claim so that we don't have the policies affecting us, saying that we have to own the land before we can access housing programs.

If we had our money now and we had our land claim settled, we'd be able to be working with the GNWT as well, in partnership, working on all sorts of housing programs for our people, whether it's low-cost housing or affordable housing or elders' programs.

We definitely need to have our own funding. It's almost like we live in two different times. If you come into the north and then come into the south, it's totally different. We're at the grassroots level. We're sitting there in our communities. We have very, very little capacity—if any at all. We have no affordable housing units available for our people. We're starting at the grassroots level in building our communities.

As I said, they have to deal directly with us. Thank you.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I'm going to ask two quick questions. It's important that everybody understands the situation for the NWT Métis. This committee is studying it, so the recommendations will come from here.

First of all, the Métis National Council does get housing money. Is the NWT Métis membership counted in the Métis National Council's numbers?

The second one I think you touched on. Could you talk about how important it would be to settle self-governments and also land claims through your new framework? How would that help address the housing needs for the NWT Métis?

[Garry Bailey]

I believe our numbers are counted in with the Métis National Council, something that we have opposed. For the 27 years I've been there, we've opposed that. I've made that clear to all the INAC ministers I've met over the years.

Settling a land claim with us is very important for the Northwest Territories. It's beneficial for Canada to have a sovereign country in our territory.

It's very important to the Northwest Territory Métis Nation. As I've said, we haven't received any kind of funding like this for housing. We have to start building our nation so that our government can have a future for our people to grow, to continue on and to coexist with the governments that are in our territory. It will bring in a lot of opportunities for capacity building, economic development and housing. We have our land available so that we can start building houses and so on, for our people.

Our people have not benefited from government jobs and so on. They go out and get educated. We want to keep our people in our small communities, but we can't keep them. They all move on and that's unfortunate for sure. If we had our government settled, we would have jobs for them to come home to.

We'd have our own Canada, you might as well as say, as far as I'm concerned. We'd be self-sufficient. We wouldn't be as dependent on Canada anymore. We still have to have the relationship to work together on developing our country, which is what we want to do. We want to have a relationship to coexist with one another. It would move forward all the development that is undeveloped in the Northwest Territories as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Bailey. I'm going to have to move on to the next questioner.

Go ahead, Mrs. Gill. You have six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to Mr. Bailey and Mr. Quesnel, the witnesses, for being with us today.

Mr. Bailey and Mr. Quesnel, I'm paraphrasing here, but something you both brought up was the fact that the Northwest Territory Métis Nation did not receive the same treatment or the same opportunities as Métis communities represented by the Métis National Council.

Can you tell us how the needs are different? If you are treated differently, how do the needs differ? Does that mean the communities all have different needs, even taking into account adjustments specific to location?

That question is for Mr. Bailey and Mr. Quesnel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Mr. Quesnel, would you like to start?

[Joseph Richard Quesnel]

Madam, I missed the first part. I figured out the translation at the last second. I apologize.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Chair, may I repeat the question?