Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 26th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

All right.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Bailey and Mr. Quesnel, I was hoping you could explain the differences in how the Métis communities are treated—if I can put it that way, but it may not be the right word. Actually, I should say first nations and Métis nations since you don't feel that the Métis National Council represents you.

Could you please explain the inequities or differences between the various groups? Could you tell me whether the funding needs are different or the same, despite any adjustments for location or remoteness?

[Joseph Richard Quesnel]

I can't speak to the northern Métis; I'll let Mr. Bailey address that.

I know you're talking about Métis communities across Canada. I'm associated with the Métis Nation of Ontario. It's mostly urbanized, so it's not really an issue. You have a lot of Métis who generally live in mainstream communities. You don't have reserves for Métis people.

The closest is...in Alberta, where they have the land base and they have different communities. That's another issue. The federal government has the main responsibility towards first nations and housing and they provide a vast array of programs. Definitely first nation housing would be the main concern.

I'll let Mr. Bailey address the specific needs of his communities.

[Garry Bailey]

Thank you.

As I've mentioned, the Northwest Territories Métis Nation has never received housing funding. This year is going to be the first time, so we definitely have a lot of catch-up to do. We have first nations in the Northwest Territories specifically on reserves that have received up to $60 million so they can build up to 10 to 15 houses in their communities. We haven't benefited from that at all. There have been housing programs over the years since the government has signed treaties. There is definitely an inequity. It is unbalanced for sure when we haven't received any.

I wouldn't say that my needs are more than theirs. I think we all have the same needs. We live in the same communities.

We definitely have to have affordable housing in our communities. We have a lot of people who are living in units that have seven people in two-bedroom, three-bedroom units. There is no healthy living there, for sure.

To date, as I said, we haven't received any equitable funding. We haven't received any funding until now. I appreciate the funding we're going to be receiving now—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Sorry, but I have to stop you there, Mr. Bailey.

Basically, there is nothing that would explain or justify the inequity between some Métis and Indigenous communities. You said you all had the same needs.

Do I have that right?

[Garry Bailey]

Yes, we're recognized as Métis people. We have section 35 rights, protected by the Constitution as well. We're part of one of the recognized aboriginal peoples of Canada through UNDRIP, and we haven't received equitable treatment. They've dealt with the Métis National Council over the years, but not with the indigenous Métis of the Northwest Territories.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

At the end of your opening statement, you began talking about your recommendations. Would you like to go into more detail?

You mentioned the need to settle land claims. That would be a first step. Do you have other recommendations you'd like to share with the committee?

[Garry Bailey]

Thank you.

I'd recommend dealing with the Northwest Territory Métis Nation directly and doing a proper assessment, getting us to do the assessment on a needs basis on how we can develop our own program, which will eventually sustain itself. What we're planning on doing with the $6 million we have is something totally different from how the GNWT has dealt with housing over the years. The way that housing has developed, housing programs are for low-cost housing, and it's basically as case of the less you make, the more you qualify.

I'm developing our program to encourage our people to get into the workforce. If you have a job, you can get a credit rating. We'll help you to get assistance so that you can get into buying your own home. It's fine for a start, but we're finding that there aren't enough homes in our communities to actually get people into, so we actually have to get enough money so that we can build these homes and get our people into them, but to date we don't have the capacity to do that at all.

Dealing with us directly is going to tell you exactly what our needs are, and we'll do our own needs assessments and so on for the future. We're talking about elders as well. It would save Canada money if we had our elders living in their homes as long as they possibly can. We would like to be doing stuff like that as well. We have our own vision for housing, for sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Madame Gill.

Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, it was a very interesting discussion.

I will ask a question of Joseph. I appreciate your comments on the importance of having indigenous capacity to make decisions.

Do you have any recommendations for us on how indigenous communities may participate on an equal basis so they can work on their own indigenous governance in the implementation or delivery of the housing? This, of course, will require resources that we do not have.

[Joseph Richard Quesnel]

I think there's a lot that government can do. There are first nation organizations that look at these things. They can provide templates for best practice housing governance regimes that they can provide to first nation communities.

Just as an example, we mentioned Fisher River earlier. The first time I encountered Fisher River as an example.... We at the Frontier Centre had a study for years called the “Aboriginal Governance Index”, which involved us travelling to first nations in all three prairie provinces and asking average people about their quality of governance and services. We've talked to hundreds of people over the years and we would find out about these things. One the things I found out was, for example, that in Fisher River there was a problem with the politicization of housing programs. I talked to a lot of people, housing managers. They were concerned that the decisions being made weren't for the benefit of the situation in front of them. In Fisher River, they felt that how people voted was playing into it.

I don't know if they're still doing this, but what they did at the time is that they had a program where they basically assigned numbers to people on housing. They took out identities, they took out names of people. There was a concern about who you were related to, those kinds of things. They found this was a very effective program. Single parents and up-and-coming families were getting housing and it had nothing to do with politics. So that was something that worked for them.

Communities like that and first nations can provide all these examples, and the federal government can somehow facilitate first nations, knowing about what programs work. Not all of them will be the same. I think that I'd recommend that the federal government provide capacity and funding for first nations to set up the housing governance programs, so that they can set these things up and run them as an experiment.

I mentioned that the Institute on Governance had an interesting system where they had an outside accreditation body that would come in. It's like ISO 9001, that system where they adopt certain financial and management standards. That would actually affect funding and things like that. So for outside bodies that would fund the housing, they would know that the first nation is well run. They would have to provide certain audited statements and things like that and governance systems. I recommend that the federal government look at outside accreditation systems among first nations, because it's not the federal government coming in and telling people what to do: They're usually outside bodies and they can also be indigenous-run bodies.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you. I'd like to ask you another question.

In 2022, the housing budget was revealed. Have you read it and what do you think of it? Is it enough to satisfy the housing needs, which are very serious at this point?

[Joseph Richard Quesnel]

I think that any funding, and the commitment made, are good, as opposed to the previous budget. But I'll just reiterate what I'd said in my statement, that I really don't think the government is ever going to catch up. I think it's never going to be enough. I think the government needs to shift its focus from looking at it in terms of saying, this is how much we spend on indigenous housing, or this is how many houses we're planning to build. Move away from a focus on just saying that and look at more outcomes and say, what kind of policies and what kind of governance changes are we going to make to better facilitate first nations accessing different options? Like I said, I think the private sector has to be leading that process.

But there are different ways. There's a way the private sector can partner with the government. We have that right now with the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation programs that they have, or even Habitat for Humanity. That's one thing. I don't think that should be the model, but that's just an example. Non-profit organizations can help, can come in to do it. But rather than focus on numbers, let's look at outcomes. Let's look at how many policy changes we're going to have that are going to improve housing and allow first nations to access better market housing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

That completes the first round. We have time for the second round and the first four speakers if we stay tight, so I'm going to suggest we go ahead with that.

Mr. Shields, if you would start, you have five minutes.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

I'll be sharing my time with Mr. Viersen.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

That's very good.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I appreciate the witnesses today.

I have a question for Mr. Bailey.

You talked about self-government. Could you quickly and succinctly describe the model that you're looking at and negotiating for self-government?

[Garry Bailey]

We don't have a particular model that we're looking at. We're obviously developing our own self-government model where we're going to be running our own programs, our own services, having our own constitution and our own kind of legislative assembly, I guess.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

It would be structured like a territory, a municipality or those kinds of.... Is that what you're talking about?

[Garry Bailey]

We'll be having our own territory, our own land and a resource agreement where we're going to be managing roughly 25,194 square kilometres of land. We'll be managing the lands and resources within that territory, which includes the governance.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Where are you with those negotiations?

[Garry Bailey]

We signed our agreement in principle in 2015. We just signed our self-government agreement as well. Next is to sign our final agreement and then we'd get into the implementation.

We're at the final stages. We're dealing with some key issues. We've been trying new ways to get that passed, but we still have opposition from both governments.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

I'll turn to Mr. Viersen.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Quesnel, we were talking earlier about some of the items that can help folks get out from underneath the Indian Act. I was wondering if you're familiar with the financial management board and the First Nations Fiscal Management Act.

Do you have any comments about that act and the board?

[Joseph Richard Quesnel]

Definitely. I think that's a very good way for first nations to access funding for different projects at good interest rates. One thing that's important about the First Nations Fiscal Management Act is that you have to show that you have proper financial and governance controls before you can borrow from them.

It really allows first nations, who increasingly are accessing own-source revenues, to collateralize—whatever the word is—and leverage those things in order to borrow money on the bond market. You have all kinds of examples. You have some first nations in the south with casino money. You even have some first nations trying to monetize cannabis sales.

I think it's a very good regime. I think I'd strongly encourage you as a committee to.... One thing that it can fund is housing projects. Also, it funds other infrastructure. I think it's very important.

One recommendation that you could consider is this. I've heard from very good indigenous business proponents who have called upon the government to consider giving its sovereign guarantee—Canada's credit rating—to that institution for first nations to be able to borrow against. Although some people say Canada's credit rating is not as good as it was in the past, it's still pretty good. That kind of backing would be appreciated.

There still would be those financial and governance controls to make sure that these are well-organized and well-run ventures.