Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 14th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Schmale.

We'll go to Mr. McLeod.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for joining us, Shane. In your two years as minister, you've certainly seen your share of emergencies, especially when it comes to floods. It's quite concerning that we're starting to see floods in communities where we really didn't have the same level of flooding before. I appreciate your comment about seeing the 200-year flood levels being reached. For example, Hay River was developed with what they called a “new town”. It was not supposed to flood, and this year it flooded.

I'm quite concerned. We have, as you stated, many communities without roads. We have many communities without police. We have a lot more ships in the northern part of the territory and we really don't have any navigational aids, so it's an accident waiting to happen. I'm not sure how we would handle it, because the coastal communities don't have a lot of larger boats.

The Canadian Rangers are a good support. I belong to the rangers. I was a master corporal with the rangers. I volunteered to work with the junior rangers, but I know that they don't have equipment. They don't have radios, so they can't talk to each other. They don't have air support. They don't really have a budget. The radios the police use are not the same as the ones the fire department or the health centre uses. The synchronization of equipment is not there.

It's really important when disasters strike. It's critical that all levels of government know their roles and responsibilities, and that they maintain good communications between all levels of government and with the residents.

My first question is whether you think that additional training opportunities and planning resources would help ensure that there's no confusion in these communities and have everybody on the same page, so to speak.

[Shane Thompson]

Thank you very much, Michael.

Just as a little history, Michael used to be my boss way back when, so he can smile and....

In regard to Michael's question here, training and resources are much needed. We do as much training as we can. We work with municipal governments. Again, in the Northwest Territories, like you said, we have 33 communities and eight of them are designated authorities. We have two reserves. We have bands and Métis locals within municipal governments. Again, the biggest challenge is to understand everybody's role and their ability to do things.

What this last flood did, or the one in my riding did last year, was that it showed the importance of people working together. What I found was that in the community of Fort Simpson—I'll use that as an example—the band, the Métis and the village got together. They worked on a communication plan of who was responsible for what. Then it tapped into our regional EMO team. Using our superintendent they did tabletop exercises and that there, so we were able to have them do it.

The biggest challenge is that, when you look at what resources are needed, you only end up realizing what you need after the disaster happens. That's probably the biggest challenge I've seen. I was impacted by the flood. My home didn't get hit, but the community I lived in got hit pretty bad. Again, it was seeing the resources we needed after the fact.

In saying that, though, the Government of the Northwest Territories and the federal government were very good, even with the COVID situation, in getting us the resources we needed. They were a little bit behind, but because, again, if you don't know what you need in the community at the time, it is not readily accessible. As soon as we knew what we needed, like ENR with shower facilities and camp facilities, they were able to provide that. It was the same with the community of Jean Marie, whereas in Hay River and the reserve they had access to the road, so they were able to get out. Fort Simpson was landlocked, I guess, because the ferry wasn't in yet and the ice bridge was taken out.

Do we need more resources? Yes, but to say exactly what those resources are, again, it would be very specific to the communities and seeing what their needs are.

Thank you.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Just quickly, our communities in the north are quite young compared to the cities and towns in the south. Most of our communities have very little in terms of infrastructure. Some of it's fairly new. In the case of Fort Simpson and Jean Marie, for example, when the flood hit the power supply was in the areas that got flooded, the sewer and water systems. Mitigation is going to be needed when it comes to relocating critical infrastructure and building berms.

Do you have any suggestions for the government on supporting infrastructure in northern and indigenous communities that will help them mitigate the damage they may face from natural disasters?

[Shane Thompson]

Thank you, Michael.

Yes, I have a number of ideas, but I think the most important thing is that the federal government needs to work with the territorial government to go and teach communities that are impacted and then talk to them. You may have seen in the news, Michael, about the bank erosion in Fort Simpson. It's getting closer and closer to the power plant and the health centre.

What do we do? How are we going to mitigate this? They figure the hamlet of Tuk is going to be completely under water in 2050. How are we going to mitigate that? How are we going to move those? Each community is going to be unique in how we do those things.

From my conversations with the health minister, I know they're looking at replacing the health centre in Fort Simpson. Regarding the location they were looking at, I told them that maybe we shouldn't be looking at that. We should be maybe looking at moving our infrastructure up onto the hill. It's the same with our new LNG plant that's coming into Fort Simpson. Some of those conversations are going to need to be held.

Again, the federal government needs to understand that there is going to be a huge impact on a number of communities, and we need to start looking at and working with the communities. I really need to stress that this is the important aspect of working with the communities. It's not about Big Brother coming and saying that this is what you need to do. It's about everybody holding hands and working together to see what needs to be done.

Do we need to move Jean Marie further away from the Mackenzie River? I believe there are a number of places and locations that need to be moved.

You look at Hay River. I think you talked about that. The new town was supposed to stop the floods, and Riverview Drive, where I used to live in Hay River, was flooded. Where the ball park used to be was flooded.

This is the reality. How do we do that and how do we move away from those difficult situations? We need to work with the communities, and when I say communities, in Hay River, it's the town, it's West Point, it's K'atl'odeeche First Nation and it's the Métis. We need to work together to help them. Again, that's the federal government, the territorial government and all people working together to make sure people are safe.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you.

Ms. Gill, you have the floor.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I got caught up in this. I was very interested in what Minister Thompson said. When he talked about people who live near him, I think he summarized the situation where I live also.

Another witness, Ms. Cardinal from the Red Cross, told us instead that the indigenous communities are the most affected by climate change and of course the least equipped to deal with it.

I would like to know if Mr. Thompson agrees with that.

In his view, what tools are the various indigenous communities missing?

[Shane Thompson]

Thank you.

I'll probably agree to disagree. I agree that it is having an impact on indigenous governments. In the Northwest Territories, like I said, three to four times the national average, we are being impacted. We are living climate change. We are dealing with it. We are dealing with these issues.

The one unique thing about the Northwest Territories is that, with each community, whether they're a designated authority, the reserve or the municipality, we work with them to train and give them them the skills we have in place. Each community has an emergency management plan in place. Some communities have more staff and more resources, and some don't.

Again, it's very much about each community having its own plan. We work with them. We don't designate them or treat them differently. Jean Marie, which has 65 people, is no different from Fort Simpson, which has 1,250 people, or Hay River, which has 3,500 people. We treat everybody the same. We work on plans. They all have their own plans. Again, we do tabletop exercises, and we try to work with them and treat them the same as much as we can.

There are some unique challenges for indigenous governments. It's more about having resources. Hay River has more resources than Fort Simpson, and Fort Simpson has more resources than Jean Marie. Again, it's accessibility. In Fort Simpson, there's an ice road and a ferry, and that has an impact. Jean Marie has an all-season road. Hay River has an all-season road. Again, it's about location and the size of it, but we treat each community with the same respect that everybody should be treated with.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Thompson, let me reassure you: I did not mean that non-indigenous and indigenous people were treated differently. I was just picking up on what Ms. Cardinal said that about certain indigenous communities that might be missing tools. I do not want to misrepresent what she wanted to say. I was referring to the lack of tools, not to the Northwest Territories and what you and your government are doing. We are of course talking today about what the federal government can do better and what else it can do.

You said that each community faces different circumstances. To your knowledge, has the federal government reached out to each indigenous community to determine their needs, specifically as regards preparation, equipment, human resources and training? Do you know if anything was done in the past or is being done now?

[Shane Thompson]

First of all, I should say that there was no disrespect intended in my answer. I totally understood what your question was. I greatly appreciated it.

We're unique in the Northwest Territories, because we actually work with our indigenous governments. They are very much a part of our role and how we work in there.

I have to give a shout-out to Michael McLeod, because he's been very helpful in bringing forth to the federal government the issues of the Northwest Territories, whether they're the issues of small communities or the city. We do have the opportunity to work with CIRNAC and Public Safety Canada—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Was each community consulted?

Since you talked about different cases, I am wondering if the federal government consulted each community. Do you know if that has already been done?

[Shane Thompson]

I would say that the consultation is through us as the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. We are the lead. We work with them. We do reach out with the federal government through CIRNAC and Public Safety Canada, and as well with the two reserves. We have a relationship that way.

I would say they're consulted through us.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

So they were consulted. Mr. Thompson, you said everything is sent to the federal government, specifically through my colleague Mr. McLeod. Would you have other requests right now if you were consulted?

You said there are response plans and that everything is going relatively smoothly. What are your requests? What recommendations would you like to make to the committee?

[Shane Thompson]

Quickly, to be really succinct, it would be more money for the ability to mitigate and adapt our communities and to understand that sometimes the disaster system policy should let us have the ability to work ahead of schedule. In other words, let's say we see a need for camps in a community. We'd be able to access the resources for them before a disaster happens.

If the communities could have those resources, that would be very helpful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Gill.

Normally, it would be Ms. Idlout's turn, but she had to leave. She has allocated her time to Mr. McLeod.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you again, Mr. Chair.

I want to ask about search and rescue. I know that we've been talking a lot about floods and the situation around how we're dealing with the challenges there. Search and rescue in the Northwest Territories is also an issue that needs attention, especially in light of the fact that three years ago, I think, before COVID hit, we had 33 vessels come through the Beaufort Sea. That was from large cruise ships to people in kayaks.

At some point, we're going to have an accident. It's just a matter of time. We don't have any navigation aids. We don't have all the mapping that's required. People are going in there blind.

I want to ask you about the response for search and rescue. Almost everything is located in the south. It takes sometimes a couple of days to get a search plane, if the weather is bad, in Ontario. What do you suggest would be a solution to that? It's obvious that we should have something in the north.

I'll let you maybe speak to that a little bit more.

[Shane Thompson]

Thank you, MP McLeod.

I think the resources should be closer. I would love to see something in Inuvik, for the Beaufort Delta and the sea area there, especially with climate change, but also having something in Yellowknife would be very beneficial as well. There used to be an army barracks in Inuvik, and it was taken away. I think having those resources in Inuvik would help us in the northern part of the territories, but also it would help the Yukon and a little bit of the Kitikmeot region as well. I would love to see something in Yellowknife and the ability to expand the Joint Task Force North to put some resources there. If we had the resources in these communities, then that would be great.

The other thing is to look at our airline companies and see how they could be accessed to be part of some of the search and rescue. Some of the regions have airline charter companies that might be able to be accessible. We could work with them.

First, I think Inuvik and Yellowknife would be very beneficial to us in the search and rescue, but also look at our charter airline companies in Hay River, Fort Simpson and Inuvik.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

We talked about many things under disasters. I have to give you a lot of credit, Shane, for all the upgrades and work you've done in the area of support, and the disaster assistance and information that is being put out there. The one thing that is not clear to me is the security of the community when everybody leaves. I don't think most communities are able to really deal with this when there's an evacuation. Lots of our small communities don't have the RCMP. Lots of times there's looting. There are people who stay behind and get into all kinds of mischief. The leaders are asking for the Canadian Rangers or the military to come in, but in most cases I believe the rangers are not allowed to do security.

What is the answer? What would you recommend the federal government put in place to help with that? It's not a really widespread problem, but it does exist.

[Shane Thompson]

Yes, I totally agree. It's a unique situation, because rangers are very much about certain things; the military is about certain things. I think it was you or one of the other members who talked about not having the RCMP in all the communities. What we try to do sometimes, if we're able to get enforcement, which are our lands officers, our transportation officers and our ENR officers, is that we help them to be in the communities. Again, the level of the challenge is not as bad, and I hope it never is, but, yes, we utilize what exists.

I don't know if I have an answer. Do we ask the RCMP for more members in there, get people from down south, take away from that? I honestly don't know the answer. I would have to think about it and, again, work with the communities on that as well.

I have just one comment on the disaster assistance. I would have to thank very much the staff. The Department of Municipal and Community Affairs staff have done an amazing job with us on this. An hour and a half every week they get drilled with questions from me. They think they're on the floor of the legislative assembly. They've come up with a great approach to it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much.

Dear colleagues, the meeting is scheduled to end at 5:30 pm. So I would like to give Mr. Powlowski the floor for five minutes. We will then conclude with Ms. Gill, who will have the floor for two and a half minutes.

Mr. Powlowski, you have the floor.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you.

Mike probably hasn't been paying attention to his texts.

Mike, do you want to keep asking questions, because I know this is exactly your wheelhouse?

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I do have a couple of questions.

Thank you, Marcus.

I have one more question for Mr. Thompson around information with respect to what's out there in terms of programs, in terms of support. Many of our communities can't access insurance for disasters. A lot of our communities don't have fire brigades, fire support and fire hydrants, so insurance companies are very reluctant to go into small indigenous communities. My office gets quite a few questions regarding how things work.

Does Minister Thompson feel that it would be in order for the federal government to work with different jurisdictions in terms of improving communications on how federal programs like disaster assistance work and how disaster mitigation works to let people know how to find their way through the process?

I understand that the GNWT is putting together some positions so that it can help, but there's a lot of concern. For example, in Hay River, I think we had 300 or 400 homes flooded, so there are lots of people with question marks.

[Shane Thompson]

Yes, I would say we registered 384 homes as having been impacted by the disaster. Again, any communication we can get from the federal government, if it wishes to share it with us or with the residents, would be great. When I say “us” it's the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs. Again, the more information we get out to residents, the better we are.

I know that we share it with the impacted MLAs. We share it with the committee. We share it with the community leadership. We share it with the pathfinders, but the more information we can get out to the residents, the impacted communities, the better off they will be and the better understanding they will have of what the disaster assistance policy is. It works from our end but also from the federal government.

Michael is very correct in saying that insurance is really hard to come by in some of these communities. Michael described two scenarios perfectly. It would be great to understand that and how we can help get that information to people. That would be greatly appreciated.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

There's one more point I want to raise.

I wanted to ask this to Chief Martel. In my observation of the floods on the K'atl'odeeche reserve and in the town of Hay River, which are across the river from each other, I think the treatment of each was a little bit different.

I visited both communities after the flood. I was told on the reserve that they had a good team together, all local people, along with the chief as the lead, but there wasn't a lot of presence from anybody else. In fact, the police were all concerned about Hay River, but there was no one from the RCMP on the reserve. The chief just about got caught up in the flood. The ice closed in on the road behind her. Several vehicles got in really dangerous predicaments. If somebody hadn't had the sense to jump in a loader and knock some of these big ice pieces out of the way, there could have been a different ending to that situation.

What can you do or what have you been doing to try to ensure that the indigenous communities, the smaller communities, are treated in the same way as the larger regional centres, so that agencies such as the RCMP and your own emergency measures people are treating everybody fairly?

[Shane Thompson]

That is a good unique situation. I know that our department treats each indigenous or municipal government the same way in terms of resources. Sometimes we hear some anecdotal information after the fact. We will work with justice on it. We will work with other departments, other ministers. We do have meetings at the COC. We're in constant contact with the chief and the mayor of Hay River.

With respect to the situation you described with Chief Martel, she told me about the same thing. We're very fortunate that she is around, that somebody jumped in a loader and moved that ice and then pulled her vehicle out of the water. She was the second-last person to leave that community. She was there to the very end. I have to say that Chief Martel did a great job.

Again, it's about communication and how we work together. We need to learn from this and be able to move forward. I've heard about some of the challenges. We're working on these issues so we can move forward to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Thank you.