Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 21st, 2022

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I wish to thank all of you who came here to give very interesting presentations. What you do is very important.

Also, I want to recognize that today in Canada it's National Indigenous Peoples Day. I want to thank the interpreters and the staff here. I think it's a holiday for most, so we need to acknowledge National Indigenous Peoples Day.

Dr. Ken Coates, I have a few questions for you.

We Inuit in the Arctic have raised the issues of not having enough resources. We don't get enough resources. We don't get enough support. We are not participants in defending our country and its security. We are not resourced properly to move ahead. We are not heard and we are not important.

You recommended more resources for the north. I want to ask you, would you agree that these investments need to be in the areas of increasing housing in Nunavut and in the first nations communities?

[Dr. Ken Coates]

Thank you very much.

I must tell you that I take enormous pride in hearing the question being asked in your language. It means an awful lot to me to hear you say that. Thank you for bringing that to the parliamentary process.

Across Canada, if we look at the housing situation in the Canadian north, we should be collectively appalled. Just to connect it up with something Marcia was talking about in terms of the challenges with COVID in northern Saskatchewan, we have a generation of young people who are probably going to fall two or three or four years behind their age cohorts in terms of learning, largely because for the last two years they were in overcrowded homes. If you're in lockdown, you have 12 people living in a house designed for four or five people, and you maybe have only one computer but nine kids in there and all the noise and all the confusion that goes on, the learning that takes place is well below any standard—well below.

You look at this and you ask, where do you start?

If I had a whole bunch of money to spend, my own preference probably would be to spend it on early childhood development, on children from the ages of zero to five. That is a really important area to put a lot of resources into. However, that also means that they have to have safe and clean houses. They have to have secure houses. There are communities across Canada's north where you see mould three feet up the side of the home and where you see way too many people. Houses aren't designed for 12 people if they're actually built for four or five; they don't breathe properly. As a consequence, disease spreads and challenges emerge in a major way.

I would also say this. We should not be rushing to build southern-style homes in Nunavut. We should be rushing to develop Nunavut-style homes for the Canadian north. What does that mean? Why aren't we a world leader in 3-D printed homes? Why aren't we a world leader in Arctic architecture and in redesigning buildings with Inuit people, designing the housing needs they want and even laying out the communities the way they want them? We have some really good examples across the north of where the structures of the communities were imposed. It wasn't the way the first nations or Inuit people wanted them. The government just put them in rows like they would have in southern Canada.

Housing is an absolutely critical issue. The government tries every year. We put more money in place. The logistics are incredibly difficult, but we have to make it into a national priority.

I would also say, going back to the strategic question, that this is also tied to clean water. It's also tied to food security. It's also tied to education and health. These things have to be seen in an integrated way, but if people are not well housed, they're never going to be well. It's as simple as that.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you for your response.

I had other questions, but you replied to most of them.

I will ask you this again. For instance, Marcia talked about mental wellness and supporting indigenous peoples in healing each other in the areas of mental illness or mental wellness. How can we support indigenous people in communities in the area of mental wellness?

We need mental health resources. Mental wellness has to be addressed. We want to help ourselves in our own communities and in our own language, without mental health workers and psychologists, and to not be dependent on outside expertise but on the community, which would be capable of taking care of mental illness and wellness.

[Dr. Ken Coates]

Boy, have you ever touched on something really important. We have some creative solutions. Yukon University is doing some excellent community-based training and preparation. The minister can probably tell us way more about that than I know.

My university, the University of Saskatchewan, has nursing programs that are based in the community. Community members work and get their whole nursing degree while they're in that town. They stay home and they stay there to work afterwards. The retention rate is much higher.

The other part that's really interesting is that we haven't really.... The vice-chief mentioned this in his comments. There is a healing and redemptive power in connecting with the land. When we go through the whole impact of colonization, school systems and everything else, one of the things that's happened is that many young indigenous people, even in the north, are not well connected to the land. They just don't have enough time to get out there. We need to reinvent education and let indigenous people reinvent education for their own purposes.

On the mental health side, there are two things I would add. One of them is that the elders are, perhaps, the most potent medicine that the communities have available to them, if you can use them constructively and collaboratively.

However, we are discovering some interesting things to do with new technologies. Some of the better suicide prevention strategies in North America use cellphones, which is disconcerting on one level—I'm not a fan of social media. They're using cellphones to stay in touch with people. They monitor young people's activities and can notice the signs of depression and suicidal thoughts by sites they're visiting and things they're saying to each other and their friends. You can do great preventative health.

The vice-chief might want to speak to this, but I think there is a sadness among young people in the north. It is because of the absence of clear job paths and career opportunities. The good news is that young indigenous women are doing really quite well, and better all the time. Young indigenous men are doing less well all the time.

The vice-chief made a comment, almost in passing, about the high suicide rates. Every one of those is a community tragedy of the highest proportions. You all know that.

How do we stop that? How do we get them on a positive track and give young people the hope and sense of optimism that they deserve? All Canadians deserve that, and indigenous people in the north deserve it every bit as much as anybody else.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you.

We're now going to go to a second round. I have to admit, I've been a bit loose on the timing here. Everybody's gone way over time. I'm going to be a bit tougher this time, so I'm telling both the committee members and the witnesses not to take it personally when I cut them off.

Mr. Zimmer, you have five minutes.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a pleasure to be at INAN again.

Happy National Indigenous Peoples Day to everybody out there. I'll get right into it.

Mr. Coates, I can completely relate to what you and other experts on the Arctic, Mr. Huebert and Wallace, have been talking about. I really appreciate you guys for digging into this.

I was in Inuvik last week, at our most active NORAD location in the Arctic, and I was alarmed by what I saw. There have been many concerns regarding Canadian sovereignty and security from our territorial and provincial premiers, and I heard the same first-hand from many of our northern indigenous residents.

An article in SaskToday, from April, reads:

[Premier] Silver, as Chair of the Northern Premiers, called an impromptu meeting of those...leaders. Following that, Silver, N.W.T Premier Caroline Cochrane and Nunavut Premier P.J. Akeeagok wrote a joint letter to British Columbia Premier John Horgan and the other premiers requesting space on the agenda of the Council of the Federation’s...summer meeting.

This is all about Arctic sovereignty and security.

Premier Silver said:

It’s time that Canada does the same. Russian actions are threatening global security, and the international rules-based order.

Instead of strengthening sovereignty and security in our Arctic, I saw this government putting up a “for sale” sign on a crucial NORAD facility known as “the green hangar” in Inuvik, and getting rid of other essential equipment. For decades, the International Logistical Support hangar has been the only facility above the Arctic Circle able to house the refuelling tankers that support Canada's CF-18s. This critical NORAD facility was said by this government in 2021 to be no longer necessary. The hangar is now up for sale, and other countries, namely China, are showing interest.

Without this hangar, the refuelling tankers are being pushed outside and now take three or more hours to prep in winter conditions. Any quick response is now virtually impossible in the Arctic.

Mr. Coates, are you aware of this vulnerability? What should be done about it?

[Dr. Ken Coates]

I did actually know this was happening. I think the government just announced what it called a modernization of NORAD, which I hope will involve addressing some of those kinds of issues, but we lag so far behind other nations.

It's interesting to compare two places. One is northern Norway, where they live with the threat of Russia very close at hand, and the other is northern Australia, where the dangers of China and Russia are very far away. In both of those areas, they have a long-standing military presence in the region. They're prepared for uncertainty. Now we face uncertainty. Are we prepared? No, we're not. Can we do better? We can do way better.

Ask yourself the question—not you personally, sir—why Canadians care so little. These questions have been coming up since the 1950s. Why do we care so little? Whitehorse used to have a very substantial military presence, and it's gone.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Mr. Coates, I've seen the same. I've done posts on social media that get a lot of attention, and Arctic sovereignty and security, frankly, are in the lower end of responses. I agree with you that we need to elevate the issue.

Speaking about the grandiose announcement of almost $5 billion for NORAD and part of our Arctic sovereignty and security, I'll bring up Nanisivik, which is a project that's been long promised but not delivered. This government has been in power for six years, and it's still unrealized.

This is an article from CTV, titled “Military hopeful new Arctic port will open in 2022, but 'significant' uncertainty remains”. It says, “The Canadian military says there are no guarantees that its long-delayed Arctic naval station will finally open next year, prompting defence critics to call the ongoing construction delays confounding and dangerous.”

Mr. Coates, I'll go back to you. A lot of promises can be made. They've been made in the past by this government—another $4 billion or $5 billion and 20 more years—but it's about promises versus outcomes.

Maybe just comment on that. What needs to be done to see these promises made into outcomes?

[Dr. Ken Coates]

The short thing is you need Canadians to really care about this.

What happens is that Canada gets interested in the north when somebody threatens it, whether it's the Russians or the Americans. When somebody sort of raises their head, whether it's the Polar Sea or the Manhattan voyages from the 1970s and 1980s, we get all agitated. We say we're going to do something, and then we don't. We lose interest and we lose focus.

When I say that, of course it's partly the governments that are not following up, but it's also the Canadian public. One of the realities is that Canadians are a southern-focused nation, living mostly close to the Canada-U.S. border. Not very many people live as far north as our colleagues here from Saskatchewan or the minister from the Yukon, so we just don't care.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Coates.

We'll go to Mr. Powlowski.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

In this study, we're looking at Arctic sovereignty, but also indigenous security and emergency preparedness.

I want to ask a couple of people about the issue of jurisdiction, and how much that is or isn't a problem. I am a member of Parliament for Thunder Bay-Rainy River, which is in northern Ontario. Certainly northern Ontario includes a lot of indigenous communities, which have constant problems with flooding and fires. In looking at this in my own riding, and at who has responsibility and jurisdiction, I always find it a bit confusing.

I want to ask Mr. Tsannie, in northern Saskatchewan, who has jurisdiction? You talked about Saskatchewan emergency management, and it sounded like they were the ones in charge there, working with indigenous communities.

Does Indigenous Services have a role in that, or do they reimburse Saskatchewan emergency management? How does that work? Is there a problem with jurisdiction? Is there more of a problem with indigenous communities than with non-indigenous communities in terms of figuring out who has responsibility?

[Vice Chief Joseph Tsannie]

We've done work with emergency services, and certainly our first nations and our local leadership has that jurisdiction. At the end of the day, if the chief or the community decides they need to evacuate, it's the chief that makes the call.

We've been working, and I think it's about building relationships. The very important thing is building relationships and walking side by side with decision-makers—the people who are sitting around the table. It's working together and finding common understanding and being able to build partnerships. That's why I say we have the partnership with the Red Cross. We have the partnership and agreements with the police and the province. We work together as best we can. Certainly there are differences, but at the end of the day it's about the safety of our communities.

It's off-loaded to the province, and the province provides the services to our first nations, but we have agreements. We respond to any emergency services. We want to have that control. If our people have to be evacuated, it's our first nations along with our organization, the Prince Albert Grand Council first nations emergency management services, that we provide for our communities.

It's a partnership and an understanding of the willingness to work together. It works best that way.

Thank you.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I take it, then, that you work with the province, and the province provides the resources but ultimately recovers those resources from Indigenous Services?

[Vice Chief Joseph Tsannie]

If the province provided that service to our first nations, it recovered it through the feds. If we have to respond along with our first nations, it's through the feds that we recover some of those expenses—through the tribal council, with the tribal council's support.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Perhaps I can ask the same question of Mr. Mostyn.

Who has jurisdiction, and who pays, at the end of the day?

[Richard Mostyn]

That's a very good question.

As a territorial government, we provide support to our first nation communities and municipalities. Within municipal boundaries, it's a lot clearer, these days. They're responsible for emergency response within their municipal boundaries. The same holds true for our self-governing first nations.

The problem is that we're talking about very small communities—communities with 200 people. Some of them are really capable of providing that support. Where they're not, the Yukon government plays a much more active role.

We have actually enlisted the aid of first nation wildfire participants across the territory. All first nations are contributing resources to that initiative now. We're working very closely together with municipalities and first nation governments to support them. The numbers are so very small that we really have to. We recover the money from Ottawa in the end.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

There will probably be no answer to this.

Mr. Coates, several times during your testimony, you suggested that the plight of the northern parts of provinces—northern Manitoba, Ontario and Saskatchewan—was, in some ways, worse than that of the far north, north of 60. Do you want to elaborate on that, or did I get you wrong? I know we have several representatives from north of 60 here, so you may want to remember that when you're replying.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

You have about 25 seconds.

[Dr. Ken Coates]

I mean no ill will toward the territorial north whatsoever.

The amount of money that goes into the northern provinces is much smaller than what's available in Yukon, the Northwest Territories and Nunavut, by a very dramatic scale. The northern territories have modern treaties and agreements, comprehensive arrangements, and huge transfers of hundreds of millions of dollars into the region. That hasn't happened in the provincial north at all. There's a vast difference in authority, resources and opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Gill, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to play devil's advocate a little bit. Last week we had a witness, Mr. Thompson, from the Government of the Northwest Territories. In the face of some resurgent crises, which some say are related to climate change, he said that we might have to consider moving some communities.

I would like to hear from Ms. Mirasty and Vice-Chief Tsannie on this.

How do you perceive this type of solution for certain specific cases?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Do you want to start, Ms. Mirasty?

[Marcia Mirasty]

I think that if first nation leadership was given the choice to move, and if the federal government provided infrastructure supports, they would move to their traditional lands. The community that comes to mind, right off the bat, is English River First Nation. They were moved from Dipper Lake and Clear Lake into the area of English River, more for government ease in building houses and road construction. Our people have a strong connection to the land. They go back to the traditional territories they came from and where they feel connected. If it was an option, provided the infrastructure was in place and supported, there are definitely families who would like to return to their homelands.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Vice-Chief, you have about 30 seconds.

[Vice Chief Joseph Tsannie]

We've seen what happened in northern Manitoba with Tadoule Lake—how they were relocated into Churchill and how devastating that was. We don't want to learn from the past mistakes done to our people. Our people...where they live, that's their home. There are people who live in swampy areas, with lots of high water levels. That's their home. That's the Swampy Cree. The Dene people live off the land. It's not just one area. It's the whole region. Our land base is within 100 kilometres of Baker Lake, Northwest Territories. That's where our people are buried. That's our home.

Provide the support in terms of housing needs. Climate change is going to happen. I can't see any of our communities.... Not once did they mention they wanted to be relocated. They're happy where they are.