Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 6th, 2022

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Okay. That's fair.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

—because I do recognize the perception involved.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be rude, but I have such limited time and I have a lot of questions.

I get what you're saying and I get what you're implying—that you wouldn't override that. However, the bill clearly says “selected by the Minister”. That is the language of the actual bill.

In all fairness, the relationship with indigenous people is one that probably lacks trust, and for good reason. There's lots of history for that to happen.

I'm concerned with the record of the government. We could talk about all kinds of people. I'm not going to go into specifics, but you're kind of saying, “Trust me that I won't put any undue pressure. I won't influence the process. I won't...,” but the bill actually says you have control.

You also opened the door to my next question, which would be whether you would be willing to give up that control to alleviate the concerns of indigenous people who have lost that trust. Would you sit down at the table with us and come up with a way that maybe we could ensure that it is indigenous people, indigenous organizations, that not only appoint the future boards after five years but also are a part of appointing that first board, which is going to set the playing field and the ground rules for all future elections of the boards?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I don't want to diminish your point, MP Vidal. I'm open to recommendations as to what this committee, the vast majority of whom are not indigenous, would suggest. I don't want to reproduce the same artifice that you're criticizing this bill as having. Indeed, if you extend it to the whole parliamentary process, you have another set of arguments that feed into the initial criticism.

At one point someone has to make a decision. I would highlight that the minister does not have absolute discretion. It does say that it is done “in collaboration with the transitional committee”. Again, I'm open to the recommendations of the committee as it considers other witnesses.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you for that.

In your presentation, you also talked about this legislation being codrafted with Indigenous peoples, yet Wilton Littlechild, one of the members of both the interim board and the transitional committee, is on the public record stating that, in fact, the bill was not codrafted with indigenous peoples. Is his criticism accurate, or how does his criticism compare with your comments today?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I haven't had an opportunity to speak with Dr. Littlechild on the matter.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Well, I think that's something we could pursue.

In our conversations with officials in the last half-hour here before you came, I asked the question of who made the decision to change call to action number 56 from having the Prime Minister being the one responsible for reporting to having the minister responsible for reporting. My understanding of what they said to us was that it happened in the drafting of the legislation through the ministry.

A further question of mine would be whether you are amenable to the idea of amending that section so it would actually be the Prime Minister who would be responsible for responding to this report and actually honouring call to action number 56?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I'd say, first off, that it's absurd to suggest that the Prime Minister hasn't held himself up to be responsible to indigenous peoples for what we have shone a light on in the last seven years. That said, I'd absolutely be open to it. We'd have to examine what the recommendations of the committee ultimately would be.

Again, I do think what's in the legislation, from a purely technical perspective, is more responsive in terms of a government response than what is contained in the call to action, but, again, we're open to any suggestions you would propose.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

In fairness, Minister, that is not what the call to action called for. That's my challenge.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

That's my point. We're trying to present a government response, and what's in the call to action is a response by the Prime Minister. If you look at the machinery of government, a tabling in Parliament on behalf of the government makes a much broader statement. As to the symbolic value of having the Prime Minister say it, I'm open to suggestions from the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Vidal.

We will now go to Mr. McLeod.

Mr. McLeod, you have six minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister. It's certainly good to see you join us here today.

It's also very good to see that the government is working with indigenous people rather than against them as we've seen so many times in our history.

Mr. Minister, I think you know that the Northwest Territories has been dealing with a lot of very serious challenges. A recent report found that one in five homes in the territories was in need of major repairs. In some communities, it's up to 60%. The people in Fort Good Hope are dealing with the aftermath of multiple stabbings last month that left one resident dead. Just this past week, the chief coroner released new data showing that there's been a dramatic increase in the number of suicides this year in the Beaufort Delta. The community of Tuktoyaktuk alone has seen four deaths in the last three months.

At the root of these problems, in my view, is the ongoing impact of colonialism and also the intergenerational trauma from the residential school system. It's no coincidence that the Northwest Territories has the highest rate of residential school survivors per capita.

I want to ask you if you could explain how the work of the national council for reconciliation will ensure that Canada does the work necessary to address these issues.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Thank you, MP McLeod. I appreciate the question.

Clearly, as we all know, as members of this committee know, this is an organization that is supposed to be independent from the government. There has been a lot of very public back and forth as to the state of the completion of the TRC's calls to action, with the government at times stating how much it has completed and then, perhaps, how much is ongoing, noting that not all the calls to action call on the federal government specifically to fulfill these calls—the most notable one, obviously, being the apology from the Pope this summer, which was given.

Again, it's the federal government deciding how much has been done and what needs to be done. We know that indigenous peoples often criticize this for the lack of clarity, process and truth, frankly, from our government in the sufficiency of the calls to action and their level of completeness.

This board, in a sense, will hold this government and subsequent governments to account, particularly on issues that require persistent, sustained investments in matters like mental health and housing—all themes of the calls to action that we've made, as you know, significant investments in. However, I can't sit here today and tell you that those are sufficient nor that the results are following particularly fast. As you've seen in the north—it being one of the places where the residential schools were closed last—the effects are felt in a generation that is still much younger, as well as on their children and families.

It isn't something that we have been particularly good at measuring and, therefore, very good at addressing. The $500 million-plus that has been allocated for mental health in prior budget years, with the another $200 million most recently allocated, is important. We know the hidden pandemic that has followed after COVID and was very much present prior to that is huge. The impacts are felt in the most severe forms of expression of mental health distress, whether that's problematic substance use or ideation of suicide.

Minister Hajdu, as you know, today invested a supplementary amount of $11 million, which will affect in that form the Inuvialuit portion of the Northwest Territories.

There is work to do. It requires us to be held to account. It requires that type of organization to look at the TRC's calls to action as not only a check-the-box operation but as an ongoing undertaking that goes right up to the duty of our government and the honour of the Crown.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you for that.

It's good to see that there's investment happening in the north. It feels especially good because, for the longest time, indigenous people had to sue the government to get anything in the budget. It's good to see that's changing.

There's been a total of $126.5 million announced for this council. I'd like to know how that dollar figure, the $126.5 million proposed in the budget, was arrived at.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Key to the financial independence of an organization such as this is that you can create this organization, but if it has no money, you essentially limit its ability to act because it can't pay for the proper expertise to analyze all the massive information that it will be provided or hire experts who deserve to be well paid for their work.

The $126.5 million—and I'll defer to officials after this—was looked at as part of an essential injection of funds for the first number of years, and there's the possibility of creating an endowment to support ongoing activities. It might need more money, but it was sort of a measure that was come up with as part of the 2019 budget to make sure that this committee would have a level of independence that was financial in nature.

I don't know, Andy, if you want to complement that.

[Andy Garrow]

That's correct. Thank you.

I also want to reiterate that it was looked at in terms of the operations of the council and what would be required, but also in terms of giving it the flexibility to do some of that fundraising for additional operations as well as being an important part of becoming a not-for-profit organization and being established in that way. Yes, it's for the operations and then the initial years.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I have one more quick question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

It will have to be very quick, Mr. McLeod.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I just want to ask the minister if he could reassure me that the north, the Northwest Territories and all the northern jurisdictions, will have representation on this board. We don't normally belong to some of the national indigenous organizations, but we do have a large indigenous population.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Quickly, the answer is yes. The discretion will not be mine to wield. It's been noted many times, and there is that need to have that diverse representation. That's the answer I can give you right now, MP McLeod.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. McLeod.

I will now give the floor to Ms. Gill for six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the minister for participating in this meeting.

In the first round of questions, I asked primarily about first nations representation in the consultations.

We can, of course, ask the same questions about the members of the board. I am not referring to the transitional committee or the interim board, but the board of directors that will be established thereafter. I was going to say permanent, but that is not the right word since the members are elected for a five-year term.

Can we say that the Assembly of First Nations, the Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami and the Métis National Council truly represent all the nations in Canada?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

The simple answer is no. These organizations represent a large majority of people, but there are, of course, first nations, who consider themselves to be first nations, but do not feel represented by the Assembly of First Nations. We all know that; it is common knowledge.

Overall, we have tried to ensure that each national council had a place on this council. There is also the issue of proportionality, which other witnesses might address. Another challenge is ensuring that there is diversity on the council. So there is some tension, but we wanted to prevent things from becoming too politicized. As you know, these are groups that are not necessarily rights holders, especially as regards the AFN. The communities are, of course, rights holders. One of the challenges is to have prominent individuals who can work independently. What is most important is that the AFN, the National Métis Council and, of course, the ITK are represented.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I wonder if the minister would be open to the idea of a mechanism that would allow the first nations, which consider themselves to be nations although they are not represented, to be represented in another way. They could occupy other seats.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I am open to recommendations. We would have to listen to the testimony. It is already quite difficult to limit the membership to 13 people. It will be a difficult choice and the results will not be perfect, ultimately.