Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 37 of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

We are gathered here today on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses from the National Council for Reconciliation Transitional Committee, who have joined us all in person in the committee room this morning as we study Bill C-29. They will each have an opportunity to make a five-minute statement.

We have Mr. Mitch Case, Ms. Edith Cloutier, Ms. Rosemary Cooper and Mr. Michael DeGagné.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I'd like to outline the usual rules that we follow here.

Members or witnesses may speak in the language of their choice. Interpretation services are offered in English, French and Inuktitut. Please be patient with the interpretation. There may be a delay, especially since the Inuktitut has to be translated into English first before it can be translated into French and vice versa.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. This will help our interpreters translate what you have to say. When you are not speaking, please put your microphone on mute. I remind everyone that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Each of the witnesses today will be invited to make a five-minute statement, and that will be followed by questions for the remainder of the time.

Before we begin, I will give the floor to Mrs. Gill.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I know that all the witnesses are in the room, but I want to make sure that they know how things work, so that they can understand the questions and comments that will be made in French or in English.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

They do know how things work.

With that, I would like to begin the initial statements. I'll invite Ms. Cloutier to begin with her five-minute statement.

Ms. Cloutier, the microphone is yours.

[Edith Cloutier, Member, National Council for Reconciliation Transitional Committee]

Kwe, good morning.

I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you, on this traditional unceded territory of my people, the Anishinabe. Thank you, meegwetch, for the invitation.

It is a privilege to share this forum with my colleagues, Mitch Case, Mike DeGagné and Rosemary Cooper, of the National Council for Reconciliation Transitional Committee. Our committee was created on December 16, 2021, by the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Marc Miller.

We would like to take this opportunity to thank the minister for his confidence, as well as the invaluable support provided by members of his team throughout our mandate. We also wish to acknowledge the contribution of Chief Wilton Littlechild, former commissioner of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, in the early stages of our committee's work.

To give a little background, I was also a member, along with my colleague Mike DeGagné, of the first interim board of directors established in December 2017, which also included Jean Taillet, a lawyer from the Métis nation, Max FineDay, representing the youth voice and referred by the Assembly of First Nations, Clint Davis from the Inuit nation and coming from the economic world, as well as Wilton Littlechild. At the time, our mandate was primarily to make recommendations to the then Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Carolyn Bennett, in relation to the creating of the National Council for Reconciliation, specifically to see to the implementation of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action number 53 and 54.

In June 2018, at the completion of our work, which included an engagement session that brought together nearly 30 participants from a variety of backgrounds in Canada's indigenous and non-indigenous worlds, we documented 25 recommendations in a final report, which was submitted to the minister. This report was also sent to national indigenous organizations and made available to the general public on the website of the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs.

The members of the current transitional committee began work in January 2022. Our mandate was to provide advice and guidance on the co-development of the legislative framework, to engage with indigenous and non-indigenous groups on the establishment of the National Council for Reconciliation, and finally to help support the establishment of the council's permanent board of directors.

During the course of the mandate, we conducted targeted interviews with indigenous and non-indigenous experts, including legal experts, data processing specialists, as well as experts in finance, governance and reconciliation. The feedback and advice we received enriched our thinking and work. This included advice in areas such as law, data access, information sharing, governance and accountability.

It is important to note that the work of our transitional committee was done as a continuation of the work conducted by the National Council for Reconciliation's first interim board of directors, and aligned with the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada.

Today marks a significant milestone in our mandate, four years after the final report of the interim board of directors was submitted, and almost eight years after the final report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and its 94 calls to action. This is a pivotal, even historic, moment in this long journey to the creation of the National Council for Reconciliation.

Throughout our work on the co-development of the legislative framework for the establishment of the council, we have made it a point to keep at the heart of our process those who do not necessarily occupy the chairs around the big tables and discussion forums on reconciliation. As far as I am concerned, my daily work at the Val-d'Or Native Friendship Centre is to be at the side of those for whom reconciliation must make sense.

My experience of more than 30 years as executive director leads me to live in proximity and in relationship with the members of my community. Being in close contact with people on a daily basis, I get to know their stories and those of their families, to better understand their experiences, struggles, failures and successes. By being on the ground, I am able to understand what works—

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, Ms. Cloutier, but we want to allow people to ask a lot of questions today. Since your time is supposed to be five minutes, I would ask you to please wrap up.

[Edith Cloutier]

All right.

So I conclude by saying that the National Council for Reconciliation must reflect real life and not be disconnected from what makes reconciliation truly meaningful to our people.

Thank you. Meegwetch. Merci.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Cloutier.

Before I give the floor to anyone else, I would like to know if you had agreed on an order among the four of you today or if I can choose the next presenter myself.

[Edith Cloutier]

The next presenter should be Mr. Case, followed by Ms. Cooper, and then Mr. DeGagné could conclude.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Great. Thank you.

Mr. Mitch Case, you have five minutes to make your opening statement. Please go ahead.

[Mitch Case, Member, National Council for Reconciliation Transitional Committee]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for inviting my colleagues and me to present some of our thoughts on the work we've been undertaking together for a year, and with a few of our colleagues for much longer than that.

I want to set the context for the discussion using what is proposed in the bill related to the role and mandate of the national council for reconciliation.

That section outlines that the national council for reconciliation is to establish a broad, flexible definition of reconciliation that is reflective of the changing needs of indigenous communities and the incredibly complex task that is before this country if reconciliation is going to be achieved. That means reconciliation on social issues, rights issues, economic issues and everything else beyond that.

It's also very clear in the proposed legislation that we're not establishing the national council for reconciliation to do reconciliation. It is not set up so that reconciliation will be accomplished because this council is established. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission, in their calls to action, was incredibly clear that this is an issue for all of Canadian society. It is all levels of government and all levels of Canadian society that have to be a part of this conversation.

With the way we wrote our recommendations that went into the legislation, the goal is to establish a national council to be the body that watches and keeps an eye on things to make sure that where they are falling behind, they are pointed out. Equally importantly, where things are working and where progress is being made, this should be highlighted, celebrated and championed.

On the proposed mandate and the reason for having the national council for reconciliation, I think we have to keep our eye on.... I think sometimes in our honest and true desire to see change in this county, we try to add too many things all at once. In our proposal for what this should look like, it is a body mandated to observe, watch, recommend, guide, advise, caution, chastise—all of those things. However, It's not like the rest of Canada and all governments will then sit back and say that the national council will reconcile everything; they'll take care of that work. We believe we've given a very clear path forward for this, and as simple a process as possible for something that is incredibly unsimple and complex.

One thing I want to caution you on, again, is that we don't try to add too many things to that. I've been watching some of the other testimony that has come before the committee, and I think there are some incredibly helpful thoughts there for the council once it is established. What is listed as the first action for the council is establishing the national action plan. All of those things should go into that.

I want to conclude by saying that this legislation is long overdue, assuming that it goes forward and the national council is established. We've heard from everyone that this was supposed to happen six to eight years ago. It hasn't happened yet, but we're hoping that it will happen now. The caution here is that this doesn't mean we take our eye off the work ahead of us, because now this body will be watching to see if we actually do anything.

I think I'll leave it there. It's never happened that I was done before the time allotted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Case.

We'll now go to Ms. Rosemary Cooper for the next five minutes.

[Rosemary Cooper, Member, National Council for Reconciliation Transitional Committee]

[Witness spoke in Inuktitut]—

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, there is no interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

I'm sorry, Ms. Cooper, but we'll just hold off for a second while we check on interpretation.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Vanessa Davies]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I was not made aware that Ms. Cooper needed interpretation, and the Inuktitut interpreter is late. She went to the wrong building because we had a room change this morning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

That's understood.

Perhaps, if it's all right, we'll gain an extra five minutes if Mr. Michael DeGagné speaks, and then hopefully, Ms. Cooper, you will be able to start over with your five-minute statement.

Mr. DeGagné, are you ready to speak at this point? We'll give you five minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Michael DeGagné, Member, National Council for Reconciliation Transitional Committee]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the opportunity today to both present a few ideas and answer questions with respect to this bill.

I have only a few points to make.

First of all, following from what I think Mitch was saying earlier, reconciliation is not something that we derived just from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I think it's safe to say that we've been actively engaged with some form of reconciliation in this country for 50 years, going back to maybe the Hawthorn report of 1966 and the policy work done by the National Indian Brotherhood and a variety of different parliamentary committees. There was also the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples in 1996 and, more lately, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. This is not a new idea and it's not a new process, but it has not to this point had a structure.

Most of the time when we establish a program or project to help indigenous people, it doesn't come with a structure. The programs and projects are time limited. Investments are made and objectives are set, but they often sunset quickly and there is no lasting legacy for a structure that drives this forward. This is not the way it is with the rest of Canadian society, and you will find, for that reason, that there is very little in the way of indigenous-specific civil society in Canada. Structures are critically important.

We should also note that reconciliation is not a political process. Certainly it involves politics, but it is not solely a political process. It's a way to engage both indigenous and non-indigenous Canadians in a dialogue around going forward in a good way.

The final thing I'd like to say is that there's a sense this organization, this structure, would be established for the purpose of an audit function, whether that's for government or whatever else is happening with respect to reconciliation more broadly in Canadian society. We're not auditors. We are champions. We are people who are looking to find organizations, entities, individuals and corporations that are doing excellent work on reconciliation—and there are lots of them—and to point out what is going well and why it is going well so that all of us can benefit from that.

Those are the points I'd like to make.

I'll close with saying that the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, of which I was a part, was established in 1998, and there are great similarities between this establishment and the establishment of the foundation some 20-odd years ago. It should be noted that most of the heavy lifting, most of the engagement with Canadians and indigenous communities, was done after the organization was established, so we are asking here today for the solid establishment of an organization that has staying power, that will last and that will allow us to do reconciliation and honour reconciliation into the future.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. DeGagné.

We have to make a decision at this point. If the Inuktitut interpreter is not here, we have one of two choices. We can start with questions now, and when the interpreter comes we'll put five minutes in place for Ms. Cooper.

I see that Ms. Cooper has her hand up.

[Rosemary Cooper]

I can speak English.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

We do apologize for this. A room change occurred at the last minute and the message didn't get out. We very much appreciate it, Ms. Cooper.

If you are ready, we will start the clock for five minutes.

[Rosemary Cooper]

I won't take the whole five minutes. I'm being mindful of the time.

I would like to thank the chair and committee members for welcoming us here today, and I acknowledge MP Lori Idlout from my jurisdiction in Nunavut.

I'm really pleased to be with the transitional committee members here. We've worked quite extensively since we were established. What was critical for us as a transitional committee was the composition of the members of the board that was forthcoming and ensuring we had men, Canadian gender-diverse people and a mix that was not political in nature. It was very important for us and how this board would be functioning.

I want to leave it there and keep within the time you have for today. Qujannamiik.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Ms. Cooper.

We will now go over to questions. We will start with six-minute rounds, and the first speaker will be Mr. Vidal.

Mr. Vidal, you have six minutes.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all of you, not only for being here today but for the work some of you have done over the last year, as Mr. Case said, and for some of you over several years, in being part of both the interim board and now the transitional committee.

There has been some really good conversation today around a number of items. I'm going to try to get to a couple of those things in my brief six minutes here.

First of all, when I read through this draft legislation, I saw that clause 3 talks about the sending in of the articles. It's the process of creating the entity, and your committee is responsible for that. If I interpret the legislation correctly, one of you, on behalf of the group, will be responsible to file the articles of incorporation.

My understanding from my accounting background is that in that filing of articles of incorporation, there's going to be a requirement to define membership and define some processes through the structure that's created. Nowhere in all of our conversations so far have I been able to determine or find out what the intent of the membership of this non-profit corporation will look like.

Are you aware of what you're going to proceed with regarding the articles of incorporation in the context of membership for this non-profit entity?

[Michael DeGagné]

Having been elected to respond, I'll note that the transitional committee has agreed to be a part of the establishment of a permanent board, one that's ongoing. Our focus will not be on political representation from a variety of different political organizations or even representation from the broad range of stakeholders that are involved with reconciliation in Canada. At least we won't as a snapshot.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I'm sorry. I'm so limited in time. I don't mean to be rude, but I'm going to get to the board composition later on.

I'm talking about the actual membership of the entity. In most non-profit corporations, you define a membership. If you follow through on the legislation down the road, it is that membership that ultimately elects the future board of directors based on a process.

I'm talking specifically about the membership of the organization itself, not the board of directors, if you don't mind, just for clarity.