Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Are my two and a half minutes really up already, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Time flies, Ms. Gill.

Ms. Idlout, you have two and a half minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you.

Thank you to Mitch Case for talking about what life was like before the settlers arrived. That's something that I always try to mention in our reports. I always ask the analysts to say that indigenous peoples had thrived before colonialism. I think we need to add that in our preamble. That's just a quick hint to the whole committee that we should probably add that as well.

I want to ask a quick question about the creation of advisory councils to help support the work of the national reconciliation council, because we all know there is going to be a daunting task to ensure that indigenous people feel heard in different areas, especially the elders and survivors. It would seem that this a good way to set the framework for this council to do its work.

Would you agree that maybe the creation of advisory councils or committees under the council would be a good way to ensure that some of these voices are heard in a direct way?

[Mitch Case]

Yes, I do, but I don't think it needs to be in the legislation. I think that would be up to the council. I wouldn't want to tie their hands and say, “You have to have these five” and then they realize they need seven. I would just leave it. That's part of their setting up of the bylaws and all the other things in the organization once it's set up. However, I do agree that it kind of needs to happen.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

As a follow-up question to that, would you be concerned that the council would not have the resources it needs to make sure it could hear from these kinds of groups because it's not identified in the legislation?

[Mitch Case]

To speak very candidly, my concern is that the budget won't be big enough to do all of the things it's being asked to do. It's not that they won't know that they need to do that work. It's just that they won't have the resources to do it. Speaking very frankly and very candidly, that's my concern. It's not so much about whether it needs to be prescribed that they will talk to elders. It's about whether they have the resources to do it, or whether they have the resources to do the language component and all those other things.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

My interest is to make sure the council gets as many resources as it needs. Maybe a way to ensure that is to say that at least some committees will need to be created to give advice to the council, such as those with elders and those with survivors, because we know that these are very important groups that this council will need to hear from and get advice from throughout this work.

Maybe we could make sure that the legislation is drafted in such a way as to not restrict who these committees might be, but to ensure resources are provided so that advice can be provided from as broad a range as possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

We'll now go to Mr. Vidal for five minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Mr. Chair, Gary and I just quickly switched. I'm sorry about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Go ahead, Mr. Schmale.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you again, witnesses.

I want to continue on the path regarding the composition of the board.

We've heard from a number of different groups, and I know this question has come up a few times today. We've heard questions and comments from other groups, such as the Native Women’s Association of Canada. We've heard from groups talking about reconciliation—specifically economic and fiscal.

I am still concerned about the composition, especially at the beginning. Probably some of the most important stages are being left out, especially on the Native Women's Association side. I feel they have a very legitimate grievance that they are being left out of this. I'd like your comments on that.

Maybe, Mr. DeGagné, we can start with you and then go along the table if we need to.

[Michael DeGagné]

First of all, I think it will be clear that this is not a representative board. The board is there to govern this particular council. That means regardless of where you come from, whether you're formerly a member of the Native Women's Association or you're affiliated with the Métis National Council, you come to this board, you take your hat off, you sit as a member of the board and you act in the best interests of the organization collectively. That certainly has been my experience with other boards. We set aside our particular needs to advocate on behalf of an organization.

Whether or not there's a formal seat for the Native Women's Association does not speak to whether or not native women will be accounted for in the work of the council. Certainly, as Rosemary has pointed out before, we're looking at this through a gender lens. There will be native women on this council. They will speak for themselves and about their experiences. Besides that, if we're operating as a governing board, and someone comes there and only wants to advocate for one particular organization, then they are in conflict with the goals and objectives of the organization. They'll have to set their voice aside for that purpose.

We cannot have an organization that represents everyone. It would be a cast of thousands. But we can have an organization that attempts to speak through their own experiences on behalf of everyone. That's what we're looking for.

I think we can set aside the notion of representation and stick with things like what accounts for good governance here and how people can act in the best interests of reconciliation.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

That's correct, but if a group like this is representing 50% of the population, I'm sure you can understand their concerns.

[Michael DeGagné]

I don't know who they claim to represent. I don't know who any of the political organizations...whether or not everyone is affiliated with them just because they fall under that umbrella.

I would say that if 50% of this board winds up being native women, they will do a more than adequate job of not just speaking for the interests of native women, but speaking through the lens they bring in that regard.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

You said “speaking for” the larger group. If, for example, we're talking about first nations, the majority of the population lives off reserve in urban centres. It would make sense if we're talking about that, so why would we close this off?

When you talk about 50% of the population, you say roughly 50% is male and 50% is female, give or take. There are groups that say they represent or engage with different segments of the indigenous population, whether they are off reserve in urban centres or not. We're talking about governance issues too. They might want a seat or even a voice at the table at this very important time, rather than leaving it up to a small group to set the stage for future discussions.

[Rosemary Cooper]

I will respond. The board we're looking at is not political in nature. We've outlined the different sectors of society and Canadians, in general, whom we want to see the board come to fruition with.

The board will have many hats and will play a role in representation. It was important for the interim board not to have political hats, but to have a commitment to the different sectors of Canadians we want to see going forward.

[Edith Cloutier]

I would like to add that reconciliation requires collective and sustained efforts over time, but also a willingness to venture down uncharted paths to work together. Innovation is needed to move reconciliation forward, and this relies on trust and complementarity among those who wish to participate in this great reconciliation.

On my own, I tick three or four boxes: woman, indigenous, urban and francophone. Diversity is represented here, as we are as many men as women. We have to be confident that we will have the capacity, the opportunity, the will and the innovation to choose a board of directors that is representative of Canada's indigenous peoples.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Mr. Schmale.

We have one last five-minute slot on the Liberal side.

Go ahead, Mr. Powlowski.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Well, the Conservatives, as usual, are going to like my question. I think you're going to have a good response to what is really their question.

Obviously, the first board has a lot of power to establish the agenda-to-come for future boards. Under clause 8, it's the minister, in conjunction with your board, who has the power to appoint the people on the first board, which is going to set the menu for boards to come.

What can you tell us to reassure us that this isn't going to be a total political thing where the Liberals appoint all of their people and it very much just reflects our agenda rather than the greater agenda?

[Mitch Case]

Then I'd quit.

[Michael DeGagné]

As noted earlier, we've had a very positive relationship with the minister. We've been set on the right course. There's been a sense that this is what we need and this is for the general good. It has set us up so we have an organization that can govern itself long into the future.

I don't have any concerns about any wild cards that are going to come out of this selection process to begin the board, but these boards will change. They'll adapt. They'll adapt to the common good that's going to be represented by those boards of directors. I have full confidence that it will work out well.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

When Mr. Case was talking about functions of the council, he said that one of the important functions was to tell groups that want to do something how they can do it. As the member of Parliament for Thunder Bay—Rainy River, I'm certainly aware of the fact that bad news spreads rapidly, but examples of good news in reconciliation often don't get around nearly as well. How is the council going to advertise those positive messages and the examples of where there has been productive efforts for reconciliation? Is that the role of the council?

In saying that, I note that I worked in Laos once, and I was rather amused to hear from someone in the government that there's a ministry of propaganda. I thought, “What? The ministry of propaganda...?”

Certainly, you don't want the council to be a propaganda organization that just tells the good news about what happens. How do you get that out? Would it require an administration and people to communicate, for example, to schools, businesses and various other groups examples of how, if they want to do something, they can do it effectively?

[Mitch Case]

I'll take a crack at that.

I think partly the role outlined in that first section is about the convening function of the council—to bring conversations together, to highlight work that's happening and, as Mike said, to not necessarily have to reinvent the wheel every time. If there's something really positive happening.... If there's one university that has really found a way forward, let's promote that work. If there's an example of economic reconciliation happening somewhere, let's promote that work. At the same time, let's be aware of and monitor the things mentioned in call to action 55: the incarceration rates, child welfare and all of the numbers that are incredibly crucial to these conversations.

My elders tell me that we get the right answers because we know how to ask the right questions. In my personal opinion, we can't have the reconciliation conversation in this country continue to be one that is essentially indigenous people putting our trauma on display for Canadians to consume so they feel really bad about it and go home and nothing changes. We can't have that. We need to have productive conversations. Here's where things are working and here's where things aren't working. Where things aren't working, let's fix them. Where thing are working, let's foster that and encourage growth.

How it's accomplished, where the rubber hits the road, is up to the council to determine, when they're established. Mike led the really good work at the Aboriginal Healing Foundation. I still have the printed documents we used to get from them. Back then it was cutting edge that we got a paper report. That was a long time ago.

The mechanisms and means of telling the stories, as Mike talked about, are changing and shifting and will continue to grow, but I think what it's really about is getting to the stories. Sometimes those stories are horrific, and sometimes they're about looking at what's happening and saying this is awesome and we want to support it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Mr. Powlowski.

That brings our panel to an end. On behalf of all of the committee members, I want to thank our witnesses today.

We very much appreciate your answering all of our questions today. I think you cleared up a lot of things for a lot of us in terms of understanding the “why”, as you helped formulate the proposed Bill C-29 and the way it has been put together. Thank you very much. It's been a real pleasure meeting all of you today. This will really help us with our work.

Committee members, the decision was made by the whips that we would not hold committee meetings this Thursday when the fall economic statement is being presented. As a result of that, clause-by-clause will move to Monday, November 14.

I would also like to point out that this gives us a little more time—especially after hearing today's testimony—to put together proposed amendments. They were due tomorrow at noon. I would like to see if there is consensus for us to move the deadline for amendments to November 7 at noon, which would give us a bit more time, or if you would prefer to keep it on November 1.

Are there any comments with respect to that?

Go ahead, Ms. Idlout.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I would love the extension to November 7.