Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 6th, 2023

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I apologize for cutting you off. I wish we had more time with you, as always. I understood everything you said, but I didn't hear you say whether you were collecting different data or, at least, other types of data to ensure they were relevant. You didn't answer my first question, and I plan to continue with the same line of questioning.

The audit also revealed that the department didn't assess the data for accuracy or share the data with first nations. That was in 2018.

Similar to my previous question, I'd like to know what was done in the wake of the finding. Did you share the data with first nations? Did you do anything more—other than what you'd already been doing—to ensure that any data possibly being shared with first nations were indeed accurate?

I have two more questions, but let's start there.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

First of all, I want to reiterate that there is a new approach and methodology that the department has begun. It is important that we have accurate data, and that we share the data. The principle of the department is to share data with the community that's relevant to the community.

I would have to turn to officials for details about the frequency of that sharing and how that's done, but, yes, it's important for first nations to have control over data. It's important for first nations to know what's happening in their own communities, so they can use that information to either advocate, change approaches, or design programs and services. The value that the department has around truth and transparency would require data sharing.

The deputy may wish to add something, just really quickly.

[Gina Wilson]

I would just point out that there's a big difference with the provinces and territories as far as data analysis goes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Yes, everything is relative. Nothing is black and white. I completely agree with you on that. Nevertheless, asking these questions is our job.

You talked about methodology, and of course, methodology can change. A change in methodology can help produce more accurate data, but there's no guarantee. That's why I asked the question again.

The Office of the Auditor General may not have done another audit, but I imagine it will at some point. Then we'll be able to see whether the methodology and other changes have led to more accurate data.

The use of the data, however, is an altogether different matter. We aren't talking about a study methodology. It's really about the use. What's being done with the data that are collected when they are relevant?

We weren't able to get into the second half of the question, but that may be something an audit would have to examine as well.

I think I've used up all my time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Yes, absolutely, but there will be another round. Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

We now go to Ms. Idlout for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᐃᒃᓯᕙᐅᑕᓖᒃ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᑐᓐᖓᓱᒃᑎᒃᐸᒃᓯ ᐃᓘᓐᓇᓯ ᖃᐃᒐᒃᓯ ᐋ ᖁᕕᐊᒋᔭᖃᖅᐳᖓ ᑖᓐᓇ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᓂᓕᕆᓂᖅ ᐱᒻᒪᕆᐊᓘᒻᒪᓂᓛᒃ ᐋ ᐃᓄᐃᑦ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪᔪᐃᓪᓗ ᐋ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖅᐳᑦ ᐊᓯᐅᑎ− ᑕᐅᒋᐊᖅᓯᒪᓚᐅᖅᑎᓪᓗᒍ ᑕᒪᓐᓇ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᖅᑐᓕᕆᓂᖅ ᐱᒻᒪᕆᐊᓘᒻᒪᑦ. ᐋ ᒐᕙᒪᑐᖃᒃᑯᑦ ᓄᓇᖃᖅ− ᑳᖅᓯᒪᔪᓄᑦ ᒪᓕᒐᕐᒥᒃ ᐱᑕᖃᕐᒪᑦ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᓕᕆᓂᐅᑉ ᒥᒃᓵᓄᑦ ᐃᓛᒃᑰᖓᔪᖅ 10.1 ᑎᑎᕋᖅᓯᒪᓪᓗᓂ ᒐᕙᒪᑐᖃᒃᑯᒡᒎᖅ ᐋ ᐱᔨᑦᓯᕐᓂᐊᕐᒪᑕ ᐋ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪᔪᐃᑦ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖏᓐᓂᒃ ᐋ ᐊᑐᕈᓐᓇᖅᑎ− ᑕᐅᓗᑎᒃ ᐋ ᐊᓪᓚᐃᑦ ᐊᓪᓚᖓᔪᐃᑦ ᐃᓄᐃᓪᓗ ᐊᐱᕆᓕᖅᐳᖓ ᐃᒪᓐᓇ ᖃᑦᓯᐅᓕᖅᐸᑦ ᐋ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᕖᑦ ᐅᒡᕙᓘᓪᓃᑦ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪᔪᐃᑦ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᖅᑎᑕᐅᒻᒪᖔᑦ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᕐᒥᓐ...ᐅᖃᐅᓯᑐᖃᕐᒥᖕᓂᒃ ᐃᓕᓐᓂ− ᐊᖅᑎᑕᐅᔪᑦ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

The federal government tried to eradicate our language in the school system.

Given that the Indigenous Languages Act, in section 10.1, says that federal institutions will provide access and services in indigenous languages, how many first nations, Métis and Inuit schools have access to education in their own indigenous language? Are education services being delivered in their own languages now?

[English]

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I would have to get back to you, Ms. Idlout, on the percentage of education that's delivered in indigenous languages. It would really depend, I think, on the community, the community capacity and the desire of the community. There are some communities that are not there yet, and there are other communities that have full immersion programs.

The deputy would like to weigh in.

[Gina Wilson]

Very quickly, the Office of the Commissioner of Indigenous Languages—the OCIL—recently sent a letter to all federal deputies across town, asking for feedback on what departments are doing to promote first nation, Inuit and Métis languages. That's going to be compiled in his report in the next few months.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᐆᑮ, ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᓂᕆᐅᓐᓂᐊᖅᐳᖓ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᖃᐃᑕᐅᓂᐊᖅᑐᓂᒃ ᑕᑯᔪᒥ...ᑕᑯᔪᒥᓇᒻᒪᕆᒻᒪᐃᓛᒃ, ᐋ, ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᕕᒻᒥᒃ, ᐋ, ᖃᑦᓯᐅᒻᒪᖔᑦᑕ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᕐᒥᓐᓂᒃ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᑐᖃᕐᒥᓐᓂᒃ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᖅᑎᑕᐅᕙᓪᓕᐊᔪᑦ. ᐅᓇ ᐱᖃᑖ ᐊᐱᕆᔪᒪᔭᕋ ᐋ, ᒐᕙᒪᑐᖃᒃᑯᑦ 46ᓂ ᐊᕐᕌᒍᓂᒃ 1951ᒥᒃ ᐱᒋᐊᖅᓱᒍ 1997ᒧᑦ ᐃᓱᓕᒃᖢᓂ ᐊᑭᓕᖅᑐᐃᓚᐅᖅᓯᒪᒻᒪᑕ, ᐋ, ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐ− ᕕᓐᓂᒃ ᓴᖅᑭᑦᑎᑦᓯᓪᓗᑎᓪᓗ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ, ᐋ, ᐃᖅᑲᓇᐃᔭᖅᑖ ᐃᖅᑲᓇᐃᔭᖅᑎᑖᖅᓱᑎᒃ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ 13ᓂᒃ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᕕᓐᓂᒃ ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒥ ᓴᖅᑭᑦᑎᑦᓯᓚᐅᕐᒪᑕ ᐊᑭᓕᖅᓱᐃᓪᓗᑎᒃ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐊᑭᓕᖅᑐᖅᑕᐅᔪᑦ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᕕᓐᓂᒃ ᓴᖅᑭᑎᑕᐅᔪᑦ ᐱᔾᔪᑎᖃ− ᓗᐊᖅᓱᑎᒃ ᐊᓯᐅᑎᒃᓯᓇᓱᒃᓱᑎᒃ ᐃᓄᐃᑦ ᐃᓕᖅᑯᓯᖏᓐᓂᒃ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᐃᓄᐃᑦ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖏᓐᓂᒃ. ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᒐᕙᒪᒋᔭᑦᓯ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖃᓲᖑᒐᑦᓯ ᓴᐃᒻᒪᖃᑎᒌᓕᕐᓂᖅ ᐱᒻᒪᕆᐅᓂᕋᖅᑕᐅᑎᓪᓗᒍ ᑖᓐᓇ ᐃᒪᓐᓇ ᐊᐱᕆᔪᒪᕗᖓ ᐃᓕᒃᓯᓐᓄᑦ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᒐᕙᒪᑐᖃᒃᑰᔪᓯ, ᐋ, ᑮᓇᐅᔭᖅᓂᒃ ᓴᖅᑮᓂᐊᖅᐱᓰ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ 13ᓂᒃ ᐃᓄᐃᑦ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖏᓐᓂᒃ ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᖅ....ᐃᓕᓐᓂᐊᕐᕕᑦ− ᑕᖃᕈᓐᓇᖁᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖏᓐᓂᓪᓗ ᐃᓕᖅᑯᓯᖏᓐᓂᓪᓗ ᓴᖅᑮᖏᓐᓇᖁᓪᓗᒋᑦ, ᐋ, ᓱᕗᓂᒃᓴᕐᒧᑦ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you. I will expect that, and I look forward to reading it and studying it. It is important to me how many schools in Inuit lands get instructional delivery in their home language now.

The second question I would like to ask is this. The federal government, for 46 years—from 1951 to 1997—paid to build and staff 13 residential schools in Nunavut with the express purpose of eradicating Inuit culture and languages.

Since reconciliation is so important, will the Liberal government fund 13 Inuit-language and culture schools in the near future? Will you fund 13 Inuit-language and cultural schools, a combination of language and culture?

[English]

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I found a data point for you in my notes on your previous question, Ms. Idlout.

Ninety-two per cent of students attending first nations-administered schools are taught at least one subject in a first nations language. However, I will say from my own experience with French immersion or French class, there's probably a long way to go, because we know that sometimes it's hard to learn a language when it's only one course or one opportunity per semester or per day.

In terms of the language schools for Inuit, what I would say is that the Government of Canada established what is called—and you know about this—the permanent bilateral mechanisms in 2016, to talk about the very thing you're mentioning. That is what the joint priorities are, what the policies are that Inuit want us to proceed with and to pursue and in what order, and how we can monitor progress on those priorities.

I will also say, as you know, that education is delivered through the territories. In Nunavut, the agreement is with the territory of Nunavut. I met with the education minister and deputy premier, Pamela Gross in February, to talk about her priorities, particularly the funding and support available under the Inuit child first initiative.

We agreed that we would work towards a tripartite table, because of the discord that's happening between.... There are people who feel that the territory is not doing a good job of preserving language and culture. They're not feeling the outcomes of the education investments by the territory through the federal government.

That work of setting up the tripartite table will hopefully begin soon. I'm looking forward to the first meeting, because what Minister Gross and I agreed on was that regardless of how we get there, we have to do a better job. Inuit children have to have the equal opportunity to learning that I spoke about in my opening remarks.

I think this is a positive development.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

We'll start a second round, and we'll go with Mr. Vidal for five minutes.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to follow up on the conversation we've been having and suggest that you don't need to get back to me on those statistics, because when I go back to both the 2020-21 and 2021-22.... That's where those numbers come from. Those graduation rates are on page 25 of the 2021 report. In fact, they're on the line below the data point you were just talking about in response to Ms. Idlout. Your own departmental results reports, two years in a row—which you signed off on, Minister—identify that the percentage of first nation on-reserve students who graduate has declined from 40.5% to 34.2%.

Let me put this into perspective for you, Minister. You want to go back and blame the 10 years prior, but after eight years of being in government, the graduation rate of on-reserve first nations students has declined by 6.5%. That means, for every 100 kids who enter the system.... We don't even know whether we're measuring these results right, because that's part of the process still to come. For every 100 kids, we lost over six in the process. That's terrifying. It's tragic. The rates are less than half of those in the provincial systems in the first place, and they're declining.

Do you have a response to that, further to what you gave me before?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you.

First of all, the data I am drawing from is from Statistics Canada. It's Statistics Canada's 2021 census data, so—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Minister, the data I'm drawing from is your department's.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I will say this. The path we're on towards self-determination is critically important to indigenous partners, as is the increase in funding per capita. I will also say that we are hearing back from partners, and they are seeing improvements.

I spoke with Long Lake #58 in my own riding, for example, and Chief Desmoulin. Since they've been able to educate children from K to grade 12, they've seen graduation rates shoot up. I don't want to give you a number, but it's well approaching the provincial rate. They are extremely happy with the outcomes for their young people, who are now taking that secondary education and going to post-secondary. They are then coming back to the community, by the way, and using that education in the community to do all the things it needs done.

Therefore—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Minister.

Those are one-off statistics. The numbers from your department are nationwide numbers that the department, I'm assuming, is measuring accurately, but perhaps that's not the case.

Further down, page 26 of the departmental results report identifies that a target is to be set by March 2023. I'm sorry, but I have to admit I am extremely disappointed that neither you nor your deputy minister is aware of this date for setting a target. It seems profound to me that you don't know the commitments your own department has made, or that the deputy minister didn't know those commitments when I asked the question earlier.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I will say this: My target is that every student who has the capacity and desire to graduate can graduate. That is my target. However, I will again....

Are there officials in the back who have a target rate for us?

[A voice]

It's in development now and will be published in the next departmental report.

[Gina Wilson]

While we're waiting for that.... He indicated there will be a target established. I don't know what target you're speaking about. You're talking about one reference in a departmental report from two years ago.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

It was in the 2020-21 report and also in the 2021-22 report.

[Gina Wilson]

Okay. We're going to find that, sir.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

If I heard the official right, he said it's going to be set in the next report. Is there a time frame, then, for when we can expect that?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

There's an availability, I think.... He is indicating fall of—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Will we have that target in the fall of this year?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

That's right.