Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 6th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Good afternoon, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 53 of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

I would like to acknowledge that we are on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Before we get started, is there unanimous consent for the clerk to prepare a press release outlining the committee's upcoming travel to Cambridge Bay, Kugluktuk and Yellowknife next week, to be shared with local news outlets?

(Motion agreed to)

Thank you.

As with our previous meetings, today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

For members participating virtually, you know the rules to follow.

For everyone, before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When speaking, please address your comments to the chair and speak slowly and clearly. When you're not speaking, your microphone should be on mute.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on November 21, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of improving the graduation rates of indigenous students.

Today, on our first panel, we welcome the Honourable Patty Hajdu, Minister of Indigenous Services Canada, who is here in person. As well, we have deputy minister Gina Wilson, also from Indigenous Services Canada and in person.

Of course, all of us may speak in the official language of our choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting in French, English and Inuktitut. At the bottom of your screen, you have the choice of floor, English or French audio. I suggest you choose that language now, so you'll be ready when another language is spoken. With that, if interpretation is lost, please notify us and we'll interrupt briefly until we re-establish it.

As is the custom, Minister Hajdu, we open the floor to you for introductory remarks. I understand that you have a bit more than five minutes. I was told seven or eight minutes. In the interest of hearing your presentation, that will be fine.

After that, we'll proceed with questions.

It's over to you, Minister.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Minister of Indigenous Services]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Kwe kwe. Tansi. Unnusakkut. Good morning. Bonjour.

I'm very grateful to be here with you all today on the traditional and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Thank you for inviting me to discuss the work the federal government is doing to improve education for indigenous youth.

I know all of you have been working really diligently to understand the history of European settlement and the resulting policies that were meant to displace indigenous people from their lands, traditions and culture, which resulted in many indigenous children, for generations, being robbed of their right to thrive in communities with family and the right to access education comparable to non-indigenous children, often in the same region or territory.

In fact, in 2021, just over 53% of indigenous students graduated from secondary school, and 90% of non-indigenous students in the same year successfully completed their high school education. That gap of 37%, made up of young people with frustrated dreams and paths forward, is a tragedy we all have to work to end.

In 2021, post-secondary education attainment rates for first nations, Inuit and Métis were 45.3%, 33.6% and 56.3%, respectively, while for non-indigenous Canadians it's about 70%. What a waste of talent—talent that Canada needs now more than ever. It should be our collective commitment to make sure we can change these outcomes for this generation and for the next one.

To change those outcomes, we need not just financial investment but strong support for the leaders who are building and rebuilding education systems that are founded on and connected to language and culture from early learning to post-secondary. The mainstream schools have not served indigenous students well, and the effects of racism and a curriculum that whitewashes indigenous perspectives and history have compounded the problem.

Students on reserve must be funded comparably to students in provincial systems off reserve, and investments must be made in critical areas, such as language and culture, full-day kindergarten and before and after school programming.

In 2016, the federal Liberal government began the work of creating new partnerships with indigenous people to reform the way elementary and secondary school education was funded. The government set provincial education formulas as the new minimum base and agreed to modifications that addressed specific first nations' needs and priorities. To bring credibility to this work, the government has increased funding for elementary and secondary education for first nations students on reserve by 74% since 2015.

We see encouraging signs that the new approach is working. As of 2021, just over 53% of first nations youth between the ages of 18-24 had a secondary school diploma or equivalent. That is still too large a gap, but the gap is getting smaller. The deficit left by 10 years of sparse to no new money spent on indigenous youth also meant that infrastructure was often decrepit or unsafe.

Indigenous youth deserve and need safe places to learn. Indigenous Services Canada and the AFN have commissioned studies that demonstrate the unacceptable and shameful gap in infrastructure between indigenous and non-indigenous communities.

Since 2015, the federal government has committed $2.35 billion in targeted funding for school facilities, and $2.27 billion has been allocated, funding 250 projects, including 70 new schools. Of the 250 projects, 164 are now complete, and 86 projects are ongoing. These infrastructure investments serve 270 communities and about 313,000 students. These are very important steps towards closing the infrastructure gap by 2030.

The federal government uses provincial formulas as a minimum base to address the equity gap. Partners have expressed that each regional area is unique, with some communities requiring support for transportation, teacher residences, and/or healthy meals as part of their education systems.

Many indigenous partners are pursuing self-determined education. Nine regional education agreements have been signed to restore control to first nations on the design and delivery of education on reserve, ensuring that learning is grounded in culture and language, and that the funding formulas work best for each unique region.

In July 2022, I had the honour of joining grand chiefs and chiefs of the First Nations Education Council to sign a multi-million dollar regional education agreement with 22 first nations supporting the First Nations Education Council in Quebec.

At that event, I was moved by a young girl who opened the ceremony by speaking in her own indigenous language of Mohawk or Kanienkehaka. She learned her language through an immersion program that she joined in kindergarten.

It was incredibly moving. There are 50 agreements under development, and leaders are determined to provide education that results in confident and capable adults rooted in culture and language.

In January I visited with Dianne Roach, director of operations of the Shingwauk Kinoomaage Gamig, who toured us through the new Anishinabe post-secondary institute partially funded by FedNor. This institute works to preserve the integrity of the Anishinabe language and knowledge. I was greeted by students learning and teaching Ojibwa. The confidence, connection and strength these students are building in themselves is a gift to their communities and to the generations to come.

The promise of reconciliation is that every person in this country has the pride and confidence in themselves that they, too, can reach their full potential. Indeed, our country can thrive only if every first nations, Inuit and Métis child has hope for their future and the confidence that they can learn, grow and contribute to their family, their community, the nation and the world. They must know that they have the best possibility to learn and that they have equal opportunities for education and economic success. This will allow for the promise of a better future, success and prosperity for all of us.

We will get there by ensuring that first nations, Métis and Inuit educators have the tools and resources they need to design and deliver the education that will help their youth succeed.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Minister.

We will now go to our first round of questions, each six minutes, beginning with Mr. Vidal.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and Deputy Minister, for being here today. I appreciate the opportunity to engage with you in this important discussion.

Minister, you threw out a bunch of statistics about graduation rates. The study has a graduation rate focus, but there's a focus also on improving outcomes of education overall, which I guess is measured by graduation rates. You threw out a bunch of numbers on indigenous rates, but I want to talk for a few minutes about the rates on first nations. The departmental results report that I saw recently actually shows that the percentage of first nations reserve students who graduate from secondary school has declined by just over six per cent in the last four or five years.

I'm curious what your comment would be on that. Where do you think the breakdown is, relative to the other improvements that you talked about?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

First of all, let me say that it's no small piece of work that the federal Liberal government has increased funding by about 70% overall since taking office in 2015. Money was a big barrier for a very long time. We know that sometimes turning data points around takes time, because it's not only about money, but also about curriculum and the capacity of communities.

I visited with Tataskweyak just a while ago, and one of the points of interest the community wanted me to see was their school. Their school is an aging school. It needs repairs. It needs significant enhancement. Indigenous communities are some of the fastest-growing communities in the entire country. In Tataskweyak we talked about the increased capacity of the community to design and deliver their own curriculum and the work they were doing to try to reach those goals.

I think my data shows that there has been an improvement in education outcomes since 2015. I will get the department to speak specifically to those numbers. You can question the officials if you'd like, but what I would say is that the increase, although small, is tracking in the right direction, and what we need to see is more rapid success. That's the promise of the education coordination agreements, the self-determination—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I'm going to run out of time, Minister. I want to move on.

In 2018, the Auditor General did a report. I'm going to paraphrase so I don't have to read all of it, but they were talking about recommendations to Indigenous Services Canada in connection with closing the socio-economic gaps, education being one of those. One of the things they said in the conclusions was that we have to find things that are actually improving the lives of indigenous people by using proper indicators rather than focusing on the amount of money spent. The ultimate goal is to improve lives and to close these gaps. The numbers I referred to are reported by Indigenous Services Canada, so we can move on from that and see where that goes.

There was also a discussion by the Auditor General back in 2018 that the graduation reports on reserves were being reported inaccurately. It was using a methodology that was measuring only kids who started in grade 12, not the cohort method, which goes from grades 9 to 12 or grades 10 to 12, like most provincial systems do. When we start comparing these rates.... You talked about the average being 85% or something like that. I'm talking about rates as low as 34%. The Auditor General talked about those rates being even lower than that, if we actually used the proper methodology.

It's my understanding that there is a new method that was agreed to by the ADM in August 2020, which would do the proper comparative rates. Are you aware of that? How has that impacted the rates you're measuring when you measure the success?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

First, let me just give you the data I have here on your original question, which was on whether the graduation rates have been increasing or decreasing since 2016. Thank you to the deputy for finding the sheet with the data.

In fact, in 2016 we saw a total graduation rate of 43.9% of first nations from secondary or high school. In 2021, it was 53.4%. That's a 10% increase, actually, over the last six or seven years. That's—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I'm sorry, Minister.

Are you saying the reports in the department and the results report are inaccurate?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

This is the data I have in front of me.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Well, the data I have, which was presented to me by the Library of Parliament today, says that they have decreased by six and a half per cent in four years.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

We'll have to compare and we'll get officials—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Maybe you can respond to us on that.

Quickly, with the little time I have left, the other challenge I saw.... Back in this whole process, a target was supposed to be set for what we would like graduation rates to be. It was supposed to be set by March 2023.

Has that target been set? Can you tell us what that target is?

[Gina Wilson, Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services]

Mr. Chair, I just want to get back to another question about the variability of methodologies. There is a high degree of variability of projected costs for differences in assumptions and methodologies for various studies. I won't get into the detail of that, but I'll just state that.

On your question of a target, I'd have to check. I don't have information on a specific target that we have established. If you could let us know where you sourced that, we can get back to you on that.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Sure. It was actually in the departmental results report for 2021-22, which stated that the target was supposed to be set by March 2023. I guess now it's March 2023.

[Gina Wilson]

That's fair enough.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

We'll get back to you with the target, then.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

I think that's my time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

It is. Thank you very much, Mr. Vidal.

We'll now go to Mr. Battiste for six minutes.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for joining us today.

My question is going to be around the regional educational agreements and some of the challenges and barriers we're seeing to moving in that direction.

Not everyone may be familiar with what regional education agreements are. To give some context, we have an amazing example of this in Nova Scotia, with Mi'kmaw Kina'matnewey. Twenty years ago in Nova Scotia, the first nations graduation rates were at 30%. Today they're at 90%, which are some of the highest graduation rates of first nations across the country. When I talk to the co-chair of the organization, Chief Leroy Denny and his staff, Blair Gould, they all attribute it to the fact that now they are working together collectively as communities on education. Through that collaboration, they are able to focus on language, on culture and on really decolonizing education.

You said in your speech that we have nine regional education agreements from across the country. I'm wondering if you could tell us what you've seen as best practices.

Why is this the best practice? Why is this working? How can we create more communities that go down this route?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Battiste.

I'll just say that self-determination is the key out of this mess, actually. It's when indigenous people have the tools and the control to be able to reassert their rights over the education of their children and their communities.

When we took office, the federal government under Stephen Harper had in fact eliminated federal funding for things that would have helped with Mr. Vidal's question. For example, the first nations statistical institute had been dismantled. It was a key institution that allowed first nations themselves to collect data that was crucial and required for self-governance.

We've refunded that institute and indeed have been spending significant resources on funding first nations' control over how data is collected and how it's used to improve outcomes.

I would also say that you hit on some really important aspects. It's about the curriculum, the language and the world view that goes along with how people are educated in community.

You also pointed out something that is really beneficial. That's when communities work together to have the capacity at a larger scale to be able to do regional education agreements that provide supports for some of the smaller communities that may not have the capacity to do it on their own. Communities work really hard on these regional education agreements. It's a process of negotiation with the federal government, so that everybody is comfortable, when the reins are transferred to indigenous communities, that they have the capacity to do exactly what they want to do, which is to improve education outcomes.

The success is people who graduate, who are proud of themselves and who have confidence in their own stories and their own capacity to develop to their full potential and to contribute back to their communities.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Minister.

I think what I'm hearing from you when we talk about these regional education agreements is that long-term, predictable and stable funding, whereby communities are accountable to each other as opposed to the government, is something that really is working. When we turn over jurisdiction.... The last I saw from the Mi'kmaw Kina'matnewey.... In 2019, we signed a 10-year agreement. These long-term, stable agreements are leading to great progress.

I'm wondering if you could talk a bit about your opinion on what the role of culture and language is and how that plays an important role in closing the education gap within our communities.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Let me just reflect, first of all, on the long-term and predictable.... As those of you who have run organizations will know, when you have short-term funding—a year or two years—it's very hard to do a whole bunch of things, including plan for the future, but also to recruit and retain really qualified educators.

With 10-year agreements, you can actually stabilize the education system that you're running, including ensuring the stability of educators. Some of you—Madame Gill, for example, and others—have been teachers and know that the relationship between students and teachers is an important part of outcomes. When people don't have the confidence or the control.... We see this frequently, especially in remote communities. Teachers go in for a couple of years and then fly out for greener pastures in teaching that maybe will be closer to their own families or their own cultures.

In terms of culture and language—and, again, this is coming from the chiefs, from the students and from the families I've had an opportunity to speak with—everybody, without a doubt, says that when students feel safe, respected, and understood and are learning a curriculum that is relevant to their lives and to their own world view, having an opportunity to learn it in languages that oftentimes they've heard at home—whether it's through grandparents or other relatives—provides a better sense of grounding for that student. The student is then more connected to the school.

When we talk about the failure of education systems to graduate first nations students from mainstream secondary schools, oftentimes it's because those students have left school. It's not because they've reached grade 12 and failed. It's because they've often left class, left schools, because they don't feel welcome in those systems, or they've experienced disproportionate racism, either at the hands of the educators—which is extremely sad—or from their peers.

Quite frankly, the curriculum is in some cases offensive, because it whitewashes their experiences as indigenous people. This turns the page.

I have a real, high degree of hope that we'll see more and more of these agreements come online in the next number of years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Battiste.

Mrs. Gill, you have six minutes. Go ahead.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister and deputy minister, Ms. Wilson, for being here.

What you just said, Ms. Hajdu, really struck a chord with me. We are on the same page when it comes to students' language, culture and, of course, academic success, not to mention all the associated benefits. This is about their very identity.

That said, I want to spend the next few minutes discussing the Auditor General's 2018 report, which Mr. Vidal brought up earlier. I want to talk about what it says in that report. I heard things that surprised me, so I want to follow up on what the Auditor General found in 2018.

For example, according to the report on socio-economic gaps on first nations reserves, the department did not collect relevant data or adequately use data to inform decision-making.

I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I'd like to know whether you changed your approach to data collection, to make sure the data you collected going forward were relevant and adequate in order to inform funding decisions, as recommended by the Office of the Auditor General.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, Madame Gill.

Yes, in fact, the elementary and secondary programs are now using a new cohort-based high school graduation rate methodology that's going to align better with the current pan-Canadian high school graduation rate. This is going to improve the department's ability to understand and measure the difference in high school graduation rates between first nations students on reserve and the non-indigenous population across Canada.

We anticipate that the new cohort-based graduation rate methodology data will be published in the departmental report for 2022-23, which either is coming out or should be out now. I remember editing the minister's message, so it must be coming soon.

I will also point to the fact that the work we're doing to reinvest in the data sovereignty of indigenous people—the ability to collect, analyze and use that data through indigenous-led data institutes—is another really key piece of this, because, of course, the way we assess the data and the way indigenous partners do may be different.