Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 6th, 2023

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Let me just stop you. I'm not talking about funding approaches. I'm talking about actually dealing with curricula, whatever shortfalls are there in delivery. I don't think it's a question of funding. Yes, funding might be part of the problem, but when we talk about graduation rates, there are other systemic issues there that we have to fix. I've seen issues within the non-indigenous community and graduation rates and how to fix them, too. They're different.

I want to hear if you're consulting with first nations communities to find solutions to get the rates higher. Are you doing that? I don't want to hear about money right now.

[Jonathan Allen]

Yes, we are engaging in co-developing in a couple of different contexts.

There are technical tables that look at the ongoing implementation of the elementary and secondary program. They exist in different formats, depending on who our partners are in each region. In Ontario, for example, there's a region-wide technical table that has education practitioners and administrators who look not only at the funding formula but also at what it does, the types of data and outcomes.

The permanent bilateral mechanisms also look at education writ large and what partners want, and—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Looking at things, I still haven't heard you say.... We have the Doig and Blueberry first nations in my community. There's Halfway. There's Prophet River. I haven't heard an example of you sitting down at this particular forum to discuss how to increase graduation rates in first nations communities. I still haven't heard you say that.

Maybe it's intertwined in that explanation. Please, if you have that, say it now.

[Jonathan Allen]

The technical tables I referred to include both the implementation of the funding and the outcomes—the challenges, the hurdles, the objectives that our partners are looking for—that can then be tied to the implementation to get to those results. It starts with the money and gets the results.

Also, regional education agreement tables—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

My time is short. I apologize.

Outcomes are an important thing. We can do this for 20 years and never arrive on a landing spot. When is the deadline for these outcomes, where we have the goal and we say that we're going to try to have this out the door by the end of 2023 to change things going forward?

Do we have a timeline in place by which this is supposed to be in place?

[Jonathan Allen]

The departmental plans, which were referred to earlier with the minister and deputy minister, set a one-year deadline to set the targets. COVID has pushed those out. That's what's in our most current departmental plan. We're working with the AFN and partners at those tables that I mentioned.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

What's the deadline?

[Jonathan Allen]

It's setting them for March 2023 for publishing in the next round of departmental plans and reports.

The issue there is that co-developing them takes time and trust. What's emerging—what we're hearing—is that rather than a target, a year-over-year improvement or check-in is more representative of what our partners are facing and how they deliver their systems.

That is the kind of dialogue we're having at the technical tables, at regional educational agreements and with the AFN and other groups, looking specifically at the outcomes.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Yes. The one thing that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Zimmer. We're way over time.

We'll go to Mr. Hanley for six minutes.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

I'm a guest on this committee. I appreciate the opportunity to participate.

This is an important study. Thanks to the committee members for putting this study forward.

My interest in first nation education and graduation rates began in my days as Yukon's chief medical officer of health, when I recognized and wrote about the relationship between first nations graduation rates and future opportunities in health and well-being.

In the Yukon, there was a critical—you might even say scathing—2019 Auditor General's report that I'm sure you're familiar with, which showed little progress in graduation rates amongst Yukon first nations. That gap was not only between first nations and non-first nations; there was also an urban-rural gap. I think one of the most significant developments we've seen since that report was the creation, with a real sense of urgency, of the Yukon First Nation Education Directorate, and then, just a year ago, in February 2022, a First Nation School Board with elected trustees.

To maybe answer some of Mr. Zimmer's questions, I think there is an example here of some real partnerships with first nation governments and first nation people in the Yukon that really take things in a different direction. Hopefully these augment and accelerate progress towards better outcomes.

With that overall context, I think my first question is for Ms. Savill.

I know you're based in the Yukon. I wonder if you can just briefly tell me your role vis-à-vis first nation education writ large and perhaps specifically as it relates to what's going on in the Yukon.

[Dionne Savill, Director General, Implementation Branch, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs]

Thank you, Mr. Hanley.

I recently changed roles. I'm now the director general of the implementation sector, but I have worked with Yukon first nations on developing their own vision for education in the Yukon for their children. That has meant, as you say, the First Nation School Board and the Yukon First Nation Education Directorate.

In their self-government agreements and their modern treaties, Yukon first nations have jurisdiction over the provision of education programs and services for citizens choosing to participate. Self-governing Yukon first nations also have the ability to assume responsibility for the territorial programs and services. That being said, to date they have chosen to focus on a First Nation School Board and also the Yukon First Nation Education Directorate, which is funded through Indigenous Services Canada's education partnerships program to the tune of about $2.8 million annually.

We have seen successes in first nation programming on the land and through language and culture, which has been introduced into the school system.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you. That's a perfect segue into my second question, which is about language and culture.

As you've indicated, there has also been significant investment in programming recently in first nation language programs, including language nests, immersion programs for youth and immersion programs for adults, even. I want to point that out and also maybe have you comment on the relationship between how that relates to ultimately improving educational outcomes in the Yukon. How important is the federal support for language development and the resuscitation of imperiled first nation and indigenous languages?

That's open to either you, Ms. Savill, or anyone who might want to jump in on that.

[Dionne Savill]

The Yukon first nations have had program service transfers of federal funding around indigenous languages, and that has enabled many of them to start immersion programs. For example, the Champagne and Aishihik First Nations have a complete immersion program through which they recently graduated 30 students. There's a real language revitalization that is their linking to success for student outcomes. Other first nations, because of that example, are following along.

At Yukon University there's a native language centre that is producing tools to enable teachers to teach the first nation languages of each of the traditional territories in the schools.

I'll leave it at that and see if my colleagues have anything they would like to add.

[Jonathan Allen]

Thank you.

I'd add as well that with first nations on reserve, part of the education transformation funding includes an enhancement beyond the provincial comparability base, regardless of what provinces provide for indigenous language and culture. The department's funding formula in each region with first nations on reserve adds to that funding, because our studies and our partners tell us how fundamentally important it is for them to see their language and culture reflected in curriculum. Learning their language creates more of an attachment to school, to participation, to perseverance and to future post-secondary attachment.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Hanley.

Go ahead, Mrs. Gill. You have six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

During our first hour with the minister, Ms. Hajdu, we talked about the Office of the Auditor General's 2018 report on elementary and secondary education on reserves. We discussed a number of issues, especially how hard it was to obtain data to get an accurate reading of the situation. That's what was discussed.

At the very end of the discussion, I brought up indicators. Of the 23 measures used, the department did not report on 17 of them. I would think the departments are the ones that select the measures.

On one hand, there are no data, and on the other, measures can't be reported on because of the lack of data. We were told that a transformation would be taking place, and I hope that's the case.

I have other questions along the same lines.

Of course, you set targets with the best of intentions. In June and December of 2015, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada released reports containing recommendations. One of those recommendations calls on the federal government to work with indigenous communities to develop a strategy to reduce—in an ideal world, eliminate—the gap in education and academic success between non-indigenous communities and indigenous communities. The government later said that it had implemented measures to close the gap.

In short, the government said in 2015 that it had implemented measures to close the gap, but a few years later, the Office of the Auditor General put out a report stating that what the government was doing wasn't working. The department wasn't collecting the necessary data. The report even said that the funding system wasn't working and that the whole strategy should be reviewed.

Have you introduced a new strategy since?

According to the government's website, new measures were put in place to close the gap. What are those measures? I'm not talking about the measures that were implemented previously. I'm talking about new measures.

Feel free to tie in other issues as well. We are talking about funding, yes, but the problem goes beyond education funding. My fellow member Mr. Hanley brought up language. The last study dealt with that. The issues don't exist in silos; they are interconnected.

You have free rein to go outside the scope of the question.

[Jonathan Allen]

Education transformation and first nations control of first nations education on reserve for elementary and secondary are our driving mandate and our driving purpose. That transformation is attached to funding, the program structure, outcomes, reporting and data.

The Auditor General's report really drove a lot of that. The minister spoke about the change to the graduation rate, which was criticized in the Auditor General's report because it focused only on students who had entered grade 12 and graduated. We've moved and will be reporting in the next cycles of plans and reports a cohort base, which matches more what the census in Canada does, as well as what provinces do and what our partners do as they support students throughout their high school career toward attainment, not just those at the end. That is a concrete change that is driven by that Auditor General report.

We also looked at the type of data, the amount of data and the reporting burden, and we have reduced that. A part of the program structure of transformation was eliminating proposal-based programs, which were very cumbersome and resulted in funding and activities that weren't evenly or fairly distributed across the country or within regions. The elimination of those and the move to a formula basis greatly reduced the number of proposals and reports that partners would need to go through.

The changing performance measurement framework that the department works on is really targeted at what drives the funding out in a transparent, predictable way, and we are creating that space to co-develop indicators with our partners, as well as through regional education agreements, which are the most powerful part of our mandate to have first nations define their vision, their voice and their outcomes.

The CEPN in Quebec, the First Nations Education Council, is about exactly that. I understand a witness will be appearing here in the future. It's about letting first nations have those three parts—the transformed funding, the structure and the outcomes—to define how they will see their students, under their control, advance.

Thank you.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I think I still have some time to ask questions.

Aside from the problems and administrative chaos associated with some programs, you made changes to data collection and performance measures. First nations, themselves, now have control over those data, at least some as of now. That is, of course, a big change.

Have you taken other steps to bridge the gap?

At the same time, have you evaluated the current impact of those measures, as compared with 2015? Apparently, not much has changed. My fellow members, Mr. Vidal, for instance, said that it was hard to tell much of a difference. Perhaps you've changed how you calculate things, but graduation rates aren't going up.

Since the report came out, the government seems to be full of goodwill, working on various fronts. However, what do you have to show for it, in concrete terms? Do you have any numbers to share? This may tie in with what Mr. Zimmer said. Are the data accurate? I realize that they are just numbers, but population-wise, where do graduation rates for first nations youth stand? I said “youth”, but adult education is obviously something we could talk about as well.

[Jonathan Allen]

The main data we look at for attainment is the census data from StatsCan, which is what the minister spoke to in part. Some of the earlier questions dealt with the department's reporting. Again, those are very different facets of the population. The census is 18 to 24; there's voluntary identification, and its attainment level...with secondary being the highest level of education attainment.

The graduation rates that have been published in departmental reports have decreased over time, but within that is part of the issue pointed out by the Auditor General, and the reason the methodology has changed. That is informed by engaging with our partners as well, through co-development and transformation, to get to a more representative cohort graduation. That's what our partners are telling us. Many of them agreed with the Auditor General, as well, that it was too focused on the graduation rate in the past.

Those are the concrete measures we've taken. The results are not up for publishing yet. They will be included in the next round of reports and will create the baseline for going forward, to capture what changed in 2015, as you asked, and the transformation in 2019.

I also have to flag that co-development is a key part of this. We learn from setting top-down expectations. We work to co-develop at the venues that I discussed a bit earlier, with partners. It takes time for that.

Also, COVID has been hugely disruptive. Not only did the transformation in 2019 change the program structure, the reporting and the funding, but right after that was COVID, which disrupted the launch of the implementation of the new program.

Again, the highest-level indicator that we discuss is the graduation rate, which will be in departmental reports. It will make more sense with the census approach. It's a very different cohort and a very different age grouping, but we hope those two facets, based on what we've discussed with partners, will show that movement over time of the impact of the changes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

First I will ask the people from Crown-Indigenous Relations a question, and then I will repeat the question I asked Minister Hajdu.

For my first question, given that in the federal government we have the Indigenous Languages Act and that, in the act, section 10.1 says that federal institutions will “provide access [and] services in...Indigenous language[s]”, I will ask you this: How many first nations, Inuit and Métis schools have access to education in their own indigenous languages in the school system?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

I think the question was directed at Indigenous Services, Ms. Idlout?

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

It was for Crown-Indigenous Relations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Okay. Did you say “or”...or both?