Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 17th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome, everyone, to the 58th meeting of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We acknowledge that we are meeting on the unceded, unsurrendered territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

We have a wonderful full room today. It's so nice to see so many smiling faces. It gives us good energy for our work ahead.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee.

For those participating virtually, I would like to outline a few rules to follow. You may speak in the official language of your choice, of course. Interpretation services are available for this meeting in French, English and Inuktitut. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, Inuktitut, English or French. Please select your language now.

If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately. We will ensure that interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your mike will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verifications officer.

All comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the Chair.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your microphone should be on mute. With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on November 21, 2022, this committee is concluding its study of improving the graduation rates of indigenous students.

Today, on our first panel, we welcome, as an individual, Ms. Ella Estey, who is a student with us in person. Thank you so much for being here.

From Kiuna College, we have José-Tomás Arriola, clinical supervisor, by video conference.

We had Ms. Tammy Steinwand-Deschambault, but unfortunately, we don't have the proper headset for interpretation, so we'll have to have her rescheduled for another time.

You will each have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Ms. Estey, please start us off.

[Ella Estey, Student, As an Individual]

Thank you, Chair.

[Witness spoke in Inuktitut and provided the following translation:]

Good afternoon. My name is Ella Estey. I am from Iqaluit, Nunavut, and I thank the committee for inviting me.

[English]

I would also like to thank the Inuksuk High School social studies teacher Patrick McDermott for his direction with my project. I would not be here today if it were not for his class.

I'm representing Nunavut's education system from a student's perspective.

The Government of Nunavut does not meet its own expectations of having a higher quality Inuktitut curriculum for our education department, which I believe is the cause for the unacceptable low number of Inuit graduates in the territory. Nunavut has an agreement with Alberta and uses its education system for Nunavut's schooling. However, the colonial aspects of the education system have created difficulties for Inuit to succeed academically.

This contributes to a lack of confidence in students to go on to post-secondary education, or they drop out of school entirely. I also believe that using Alberta's education system causes a sense of unimportance to the cultural classes that are added on to the foreign curriculum.

Multiple different strategies were discussed during Nunavut's development, yet they failed due to the lack of planning and incentives to have the strategies implemented in the education system prior to their estimated completion. There are many factors that contribute to the low graduation rates of Inuit students, but prioritizing the language and culture of Inuit will raise their chances of graduating.

The use of Alberta's curriculum in Nunavut schools is one of the major causes for Inuktitut-speaking students to not learn at an academic level in their language. Nunavut had been using the Alberta system before becoming an official territory in 1999. The use of the curriculum is to give graduates from Nunavut the opportunity to have a variety of options for post-secondary education, due to the recognition of Alberta's education system as a success.

This seems like a positive for Nunavut students to have the chance to graduate with an acclaimed education like Alberta's. However, it is not accommodating to Inuit students who wish to graduate academically, as well. The curriculum is taught and tested either in English or French, and there is no Inuktitut translation of this curriculum. There is also no Inuktitut evaluation of the departmental exams.

This leads to less motivation to attend post-secondary education, or dropping out of school entirely. According to Statistics Canada, in 2016, 48% of people aged 25 to 64 in Nunavut had a high school diploma, or equivalency, compared to 86% in Canada. On top of that, Statistics Canada stated that in the same year, 41% of people in Nunavut aged 25 to 64 did not have a high school diploma.

This is due to the struggles in the language barrier between Inuktitut and the English and French curriculum. The dismissal of Inuktitut within the education system causes low graduation rates for Inuit. If Inuktitut was prioritized, it would motivate Inuktitut-speaking students to stay in school and seek post-secondary opportunities, solely based on a better understanding of their education.

Not only are the academic classes taught in a foreign language to Inuit, but the cultural studies in their schooling are not set to the same standard as Alberta's. Since these courses, like Aulajaaqtut and Inuktitut class, are added on to the Alberta curriculum, there is no official evaluation set in place by Alberta for these classes, nor do they have a major impact on the academic diploma.

Inuktitut should be set to an academic standard for graduation. It presents Inuktitut and Inuit culture as something valued by students. Instead of having Inuit associated with an education system that does not connect with their loyalties, schools in Nunavut should value Inuktitut language and culture the way they prioritize the academic classes to ensure the success of Inuit students.

There have been several strategies discussed for the improvement in Nunavut education, yet they were never completed. For example, the Qalattuq strategy that started in 2006 planned to have teachers from around the world go through the Nunavut institute for research and educator training. It's called NIRET. The purpose was to learn Inuktitut from elders in hopes those teachers would have their Inuktitut teaching degree by 2019, thus having more Inuktitut-speaking teachers. However, there was little to no progress made, because of the lack of annual follow-up from the education department, not to mention that the Nunavut teacher education program had no requirements to plan any training program for these international teachers.

Another example is Bill 37, which would have rolled out a bilingual education system for grades four to nine by 2029, but there were multiple inconsistencies. Mainly, there was no commitment to have a bilingual education system for grades 10 to 12, and generally no plan for this to be put into action. These two strategies lacked the incentive to have the projects completed.

Inuit graduation rates can grow if we show the importance of Inuktitut for Nunavut's curriculum and prioritize the planning and research for these future strategies.

Although there is much said by politicians about the importance of Inuktitut in our schools, it is not seen as a priority to the Department of Education. Inuit students struggle to learn in academic classes due to the lack of support for Inuktitut in Alberta's curriculum. This has caused low graduation rates.

Alongside the absence of Inuktitut within the curriculum, cultural classes within the system are not prioritized as much as the academic classes, which misrepresents the importance of Inuit language and culture when perceived this way. The multiple strategies discussed over the years have not reached any conclusions because of the lack of incentive within the projects.

When the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement was created, the idea of a bilingual education system in Nunavut was not prioritized. This has resulted in the Government of Nunavut's failing to meet that expectation, and it contributes to Nunavut's low graduation rates. This continues to weaken the value of Inuktitut as a language and the build for a better future for Nunavut students.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

We'll now move on to José-Tomás Arriola and Denis Gros-Louis, who will be sharing their first introductory five minutes.

I apologize for leaving you out the first time.

[Denis Gros-Louis, Director General, First Nations Education Council, Kiuna College]

Kwe.

My name is Denis Gros‑Louis and I'm executive director of the First Nations Education Council. I'm here representing Kiuna College, which is actually managed by the First Nations Education Council. Joining me is José‑Tomás Arriola, clinical supervisor at Kiuna. I will be sharing my time with him.

Established in 2011, the Kiuna College is the only college designed by and for first nations. Kiuna's goal is to shape first nations citizens in a learning environment geared to their identity, culture and language. Kiuna offers college programs in English and French through accreditation partnerships with two Quebec CEGEPs. Kiuna stands out from non-indigenous colleges for its unique programs and, most importantly, its outstanding support services.

The student body is largely made up of indigenous people, and they have multiple unique needs. When students arrive, in addition to providing them with a quality education, we take into account their needs, whether psychosocial, emotional or socioeconomic. All too often, difficulties of this nature hinder their ability to learn.

Fifty per cent of students use psychosocial intervention services. Psychosocial services are therefore the foundation of Kiuna's mission and success. In addition, Kiuna welcomes students and their families. A third of our students have family responsibilities. To serve their needs, Kiuna created a family and children's program called Skamon to help with homework.

Those services need to address that reality, as well as the complexity of learning a second language for many of our students. We must therefore think outside the box to help our students and their families succeed, and do so without financial support for their unique circumstances.

As a college institution, Kiuna receives funding based on a three-part formula from Quebec's department of higher education, the Ministère de l'Enseignement supérieur du Québec. Unfortunately, the provincial formula only meets 40% of our operating budget requirements, and Kiuna's dual educational and support services mission is therefore at risk. Kiuna College must be able to count on financial support from the federal government, because post-secondary education is not a social policy, it is our future.

I will now turn the floor over to you, Mr. Arriola.

[José-Tomás Arriola, Clinical Supervisor, Kiuna College]

Good afternoon, members. I am José-Tomas Arriola, clinical supervisor at Kiuna.

As Mr. Gros-Louis explained, the psychosocial services are a critical support to ensure academic success, but they are also an essential element in a process of healing and reconciliation. The prevalence of psychosocial difficulties amongst students at Kiuna has multiple roots, but it is in large part connected to the identity and intergenerational traumas that have wounded multiple generations.

Our psychosocial services are composed of a clinical supervisor, a neuropsychologist, a psychosocial counsellor and two special education counsellors. These services constantly operate at full capacity. Per semester, we can have about 40 follow-ups and now close to 30 assessments of children and students. These numbers are the outcome of students' and their dependents' being undiagnosed until their arrival at Kiuna, resulting from the lack of qualified professionals in communities to undertake assessments and follow-ups.

It is also important to note that these psychosocial services are unique in their form because they are culturally adapted and are offered under several modalities. They range from weekly individual follow-ups, group interventions on functional autonomy or community worker outreach to healthy life habits, traditional and territorial activities organized by our cultural life worker, and our intervention projects through physical activity and outdoors.

As wide, difficult, time-consuming and costly as these efforts may be, they work. Kiuna is proud to say that since their implementation, the number of severe psychosocial crises of disorganization—which mobilize several resources and often gravely affect the student's academic performance—has gone from one or two per semester to zero.

First nations know and possess the tools to combine healing and academic success. It is now up to you and your provincial counterparts to think outside the box and support them.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

We will now proceed to our first round of questions, beginning with the Conservatives.

Mr. Zimmer, you have six minutes.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to our witnesses.

Ella, I see you have a whole bunch of fans behind you supporting you today in Ottawa. I just wanted to say a shout-out, and thank you for coming. It's no pressure at all, eh?

I see an article here from a few years ago: “Grade 7 students speak out about Iqaluit school bus overcrowding”. You're mentioned in the article—you and your friend Vanessa. Your advocacy now extends to Ottawa. I applaud you for just standing up and being counted for your opinion.

We're here about graduation rates and how we could see them get better. You talked about dropping out being a problem, and we've seen that statistically too. It's a big issue, especially in indigenous and Inuit communities. You said that part of it is an English language barrier or an Inuktitut barrier in education. You talked about how there has been talk before about strategies to address those problems, but then you said that the strategies had not been followed through. I think that's where it lands with us to say that this can't continue or else it just isn't going to get better.

I was a former teacher. I taught high school for about seven years, and I went to university and all of that. I'm going to ask you a simple question, because I think that nobody can explain better how to fix a problem or how to do better other than somebody who has been through that system in Nunavut. What would you do if you were the boss? How would you make it better?

That's a big question, but what are some simple things that are just as simple as helping your colleagues in school graduate when they didn't before? What are some simple things that we can look at? Maybe it isn't simple, but what are some things you would recommend that we do to help that rate go up?

[Ella Estey]

Thank you for the question.

I will say that it really is not a simple question to answer. However, in thinking about the situation and doing research within this time, my main goal to help really would be just for Inuit students and Inuktitut-speaking students to have that moral support from their teachers and to have that cultural connection. I believe that is one of the biggest motivational factors to go to school—just knowing that you are supported and relating to your teachers.

For example, my music teacher Mary Piercey, even though she is a white woman, does present Inuktitut and Inuit culture beautifully through her choir and her music class. That is honestly the main reason I love that class so much. One of my biggest things would be to have that role model to look forward to and to motivate you to go to school.

Another thing would be almost the reverse of that—for the Inuktitut-speaking teachers to have that support from their workplace. Many Inuktitut teachers do not get their Bachelor of Education, so they do not get all of the benefits that other academic teachers would get, like proper housing and things like that.

I believe a way to motivate the inflow of Inuktitut teachers would be to prioritize them physically in the system as well.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you.

We're kind of building on that. I appreciate what you said, and it's partly the answer that I'm looking for. When you talked about graduation rates, you said there was a higher number in other communities where the graduation rate was higher. You said it was lower in Nunavut, but there's still a success rate there. It's not zero.

I was going to ask you this: When going through school yourself, what did you see as the difference? You kind of already answered it. You saw colleagues of yours graduate, but you also saw other ones who were sitting beside them in class who didn't. Give me some examples of the ones who made it. What was the difference there? Why did they make it?

[Ella Estey]

That is actually a great question.

I believe the Inuit who have succeeded academically have an association with the curriculum that they're based in. They've adapted to the English curriculum incredibly well, to the point where they have a full understanding of their education and therefore have graduated.

Those, for example, who may have flown in.... This is mostly Iqaluit-based because it's a very multicultural city on its own. For an example, somebody who has Inuktitut as their mother tongue and moves into Iqaluit and goes to high school there can have an incredibly difficult time because they do not understand English at a full level. They cannot, therefore, graduate academically because of that language barrier.

I believe those who do succeed academically have that bilinguality and understand English enough to graduate in the Alberta system. In smaller communities, the majority of the teachers of the academic classes like math and science are also anglophone and speak English. From a smaller community's perspective, many Inuit kids probably do not like that class, don't go to school or skip that class because, again, they don't have that English understanding and, therefore, cannot relate to it culturally.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Those are great answers.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Thank you, Mr. Zimmer.

I will now proceed to the Liberal Party with Patrick Weiler for six minutes.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd also like to thank our witnesses for being here today, especially Ms. Estey and the many folks who are here joining in the crowd.

I would like to ask my first question to the First Nations Education Council and Monsieur Gros-Louis.

I understand that in the past you've been a regular contributor to the Montreal Gazette and you have recently spoken out against the French-language instruction requirements applying to first nations schools following the passage of Bill 96. I was hoping you could share with this committee what specific concerns you have regarding Bill 96 in Quebec and how it will affect indigenous schooling.

[Denis Gros-Louis]

Thank you, Mr. Weiler.

First and foremost, the federal government invested $1.1 million recently in funding elementary and high school levels in Quebec through the 22 first nations who are members of the First Nation Education Council. I think it takes three to tango.

After spending a significant amount of money over the next five years to pursue, promote and support graduation, when I say it takes three, Quebec needs to be there as well to strike down all those systemic barriers based on French as the common language in Quebec. It needs to acknowledge that some of our schools and some of our students must and will continue to speak their language.

As part of the agreement that we signed last summer, $4.6 million will be invested in teaching languages and culture in our elementary schools. When they reach college, where Mr. Arriola works, that's going to be like a buffalo jump if they have to be fluent in French, if they must give up their language.

One challenge we're facing is twofold. First, 92% of our students will graduate at Kiuna once they get to Kiuna because of the quality of services provided by Mr. Arriola. The challenge we're facing is that by not promoting our ancestral languages, 50% of our English as a second language learners will leave the province of Quebec, whereas 96% of our French as a second language learners will stay in Quebec.

To me, that is an assimilation policy.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

Moving on, I understand that the First Nations Education Council recently signed a regional education agreement with Minister Hajdu last summer. I was hoping you could speak to what that's meant for indigenous students and their ability to connect with their language and culture.

[Denis Gros-Louis]

As I said, the historic signature of the agreement is that it was designed by first nations based on real needs. Therefore, Minister Hajdu and the chiefs committee on education have been able to meet in this agreement to support our native language as the core of the curriculum. It will also promote a feeling of pride and ownership among our students, and it will boost our culture forward, therefore reducing the exodus that we have felt.

As I said, half of our first nations are using French as a second language, and it's key for us to maintain a skilled workforce, while at the same time, making sure we nurture our feelings of pride.

The issue we're having is that Canada believes that elementary and high school education are a core right, but we're pushing the government further to say that the federal government must incorporate post-secondary education into its fiduciary responsibilities. Back in the 1960s, with a high school diploma, you could get away and have a good career, but right now you can't do that. We need college. We need university teachers. We're actually working on a project to build our own university here in Quebec, but to do that, you have to get past college.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

The next question I'd like to ask is for Ms. Estey.

You mentioned Bill 37 in your opening, and the importance of having that system rolled out by 2029. I was hoping maybe you could speak to that importance and what you see as some of the big barriers to having some of these many strategies that you mentioned and that have been articulated, and the challenges in actually getting those implemented in practice

[Ella Estey]

Thank you for the question.

I believe that the major block going forward with some of these past strategies is that a lot of them are short-term based. Most specifically many are premier-based.

With Bill 37, the premier at the time was advocating for it incredibly well, and it brought up a lot of hope. Sadly, however, as his time in office ended, little was done with Bill 37. It's almost seen as reoccurring, where the bills that they're trying to pass.... You cannot fix an education system in four years, so to base it on that time frame is incredibly difficult as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jenica Atwin]

Thank you, Mr. Weiler.

Ms. Bérubé, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank Ms. Estey and her colleagues for being with the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs today.

I believe there is no question that Kiuna College is a success story. In our study on education, we've heard a lot about motivating indigenous students, who need a different kind of guidance. Like all students, they need incentives and motivators to enable them to continue their studies and succeed.

How does that motivation fit into Kiuna College's activities?

[Denis Gros-Louis]

If I may, I will answer before Mr. Arriola does.

We need to secure sustained funding. Right now, provincial government funding is only meeting 40% of our needs. As I said, with Skamon children's services, we're able to take care of the children while our students are studying. It's possible for us to provide a culturally appropriate environment for each first nation that comes to us. We even have two Inuit students right now.

It's a source of pride, and it leads young people to grow alongside their cousins from other first nations. All the culturally appropriate expertise we've developed over time has made it possible for us to provide that environment. We're one of the only CEGEPs that can claim they have a graduation rate of around 92%. That's really good when you consider where our young people come from.

I will now turn it over to Mr. Arriola.

[José-Tomás Arriola]

Thank you, Mr. Gros‑Louis.

Thank you for the question, Ms. Bérubé.

Actually, what's special about our students at Kiuna College is they have a plan for their education and are able to envision a better future for themselves. Various sources of motivation are put forward, and the question of children and future generations often comes up at graduation time in each student's short testimonial. They refer quite a lot to the idea of passing on the desire to be educated and have a better future.

On the other hand, our students often tell us that when they try to study at non-indigenous CEGEPs, it often turns out to be a disaster in terms of the adaptation and supervision they receive. When they come to our institution, they have access to a neuropsychologist, and that's quite unique. No other CEGEP in Quebec gives students access to that type of professional service. They can also see a psychotherapist who uses a long-term approach to psychodynamic therapy and may even offer to see them more than once a week for six months.

In addition, our environment leads to resilience through relationships with faculty and staff, as well as cultural life and educational consultants. All of this creates fertile ground for self-realization and solidifying a sense of personal identity through services that are culturally responsive and considerate of students' needs.

Lastly, I also want to emphasize our cultural work through physical activity and visits to the territories—our young and not so young people from remote communities often haven't experienced these things.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

You've done a great job explaining what your college does. How does that translate into success?

[José-Tomás Arriola]

Actually, Kiuna College looks beyond numbers and statistics to measure success. Mr. Gros‑Louis told you about the graduation rate, but there's also success from a human perspective. Our students tell us that after studying at Kiuna College they are better able to assert themselves, to ask for what they want and need. Sometimes a student's time at Kiuna College won't necessarily result in a diploma. Some students come to our institution to access services and figure out what they really want before they move on to other institutions.

We also have the children who are part of the educational environment at Kiuna College. I've been working there for 10 years now, and many of these kids say they want to go to Kiuna College, have an education plan, and go further because they see their parents achieving and succeeding.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Do the youngsters and students come from all over Quebec?