Evidence of meeting #65 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was targets.
A video is available from Parliament.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
It's quite clear that they cannot always deliver and use all of the funding they are being allocated, in good part, because it's difficult for them to recruit commensurately with the additional funding they're getting.
As to whether or not they have recovered from previous expenditure restraints or cuts exercises, that's a good question for the ministers.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jenica Atwin
Thank you, Mr. McLeod. You're out of time.
We'll go to Mr. Melillo for five minutes.
Conservative
Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, once again, to our Parliamentary Budget Officer for being here today.
There are lots of great conversations so far. Part of the problem going this late in the round is that a lot of people have asked similar questions that I would like to ask. I'll just try to flesh out some more details on some things that have been touched on already.
I'll start with the note in your report that says “ISC was less able to set a target” when it comes to the DRIs. Mr. Vidal mentioned this as well.
It seems that Indigenous Services Canada specifically has had more trouble setting a target and meeting its target. I think you spoke to a few of the reasons in terms of the reorganization of the department and some of the new duties it was assigned. This isn't an exact quote, but you said something along the lines, earlier, of the bureaucracy not having the capacity to handle some of those changes.
I'm just wondering if you could speak to it in greater detail and provide some greater context for us on the challenges in ISC specifically when it comes to setting and to meeting those targets.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Indigenous Services was created when the department formerly known as Aboriginal Affairs was split into two: Crown-Indigenous Relations on one hand and Indigenous Services on the other hand. That was also merged with the first nations and Inuit health branch at Health Canada, which is what a former minister of aboriginal affairs used to call the 11th province of Canada. That is, I think, a good description of what it is. It's providing the economic services, social services, education, health, childhood protection and so on to individuals and communities spread across the country.
It's understandable that, with a major reorganization like a department being split in two and then a merger of branches into that new entity, there could be some adjustments needed. I think, in good part, the difficulty in meeting targets or setting targets has arisen not only because of that but also because of the new priorities or the priorities of the government that resulted in an increase in resources to these two newly created entities.
Conservative
Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON
I'd like to stop you there. I do have limited time, so please forgive me.
You mentioned an increase in resources. Obviously the current government, since 2015, has spent a lot of money on a lot of different things. They've definitely increased spending a lot more than the previous government.
The question I have is this: How does ISC compare with other departments in the government that have also seen an increase in resources and not necessarily—hopefully not—the same sort of results in terms of not getting the commensurate increase in outcomes? What is it specifically in ISC, from your findings, that has led to that breakdown?
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
It's hard to tell, because ISC has seen a significant increase in its resources, as you mentioned, but the majority of departments have a similar record when it comes to meeting their targets on their departmental result indicators. It's a case where a department has benefited from a significant increase in its funding, but the attainment or the targets have not been bettered or have not been met more often than in other departments that have not benefited from the same level of increase.
Conservative
Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON
Thank you.
Just quickly, with the minute I have left, it was mentioned as well by one of my colleagues—I don't remember which one—that obviously there's an increase in resources towards Indigenous Services under this government, but there also have been instances where ISC has “tended to spend more than what they initially planned and to require more human resources than expected”.
I have about 30 seconds now. Can you speak to that in more depth on what you meant by that?
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
It's a reference to the fact that the departments had additional resources that were provided to them after they prepared and tabled their departmental plans. That's why they spent more than initially planned.
As Mr. Aldag alluded to, it's through no misgiving and not anything untoward happening in the department. It's additional resources that were provided to them after the start of the fiscal year.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jenica Atwin
Thank you very much, Mr. Melillo.
We'll now go to Mr. Badawey for five minutes.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I guess I have just a comment before asking a question. There's no mention of the first nations and Inuit health services being moved from Health Canada to ISC. Would you not think that it would be important to note that in your report because of the fluidity that happened, especially during COVID?
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I thought it had been mentioned somewhere in the report, but maybe it isn't. If it isn't, my apologies, but I thought we described the changes that took place in the one department that was then split into two and the merger of the first nations and Inuit health branch.
Again, it's a report that we tabled a year ago. I read it again today. I thought it was mentioned.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
Okay. Thank you. I didn't see it see it in there, but we'll move past that.
I guess the difference today compared to pre-2015 under the Conservative government is that we have worked with indigenous communities shoulder to shoulder to establish, as you mentioned earlier, a bold, ambitious plan that is quite frankly transforming services and, most importantly, is to be self-determined—I want to get back to that in a second—in meeting in partnership with indigenous leaders, in legacy programs, in working to close the gaps for both infrastructure and services like education and health care and in developing more pathways for self-determination, which is, once again, very important.
I guess my question would be, would you agree that once the departments have been merged, as they have been—a major merger, as was mentioned earlier—with adjustments in moving forward in an ambitious manner, as we have since 2015, and of course, the dollars needed to reach community expectations, this is sometimes not expected to happen overnight? It's going to take some time.
Would you agree that it's very important to put that disciplined structure in place for the communities? What I mean by that is to be more disciplined in terms of community planning, official planning and secondary planning to make sure that infrastructure capacity attaches to the official planning when you look at infrastructure, at health care, at education and at housing, and the list goes on.
One, would you agree that it's going to take some time? Two, would you agree that self-determination is important while doing that? Lastly, in terms of the cost attached to it, that of course...it's a lot of money. Nothing was done prior to 2015, and we're taking on an ambitious plan here. Ultimately, do you agree that it's going to take some time?
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Well, as I mentioned before, I think the area of Indigenous Services is akin to running Canada's 11th province, depending on its size. We can argue about that, but it's providing the full gamut of programs to communities that are scattered across the country. Does that take time? It definitely takes time, and a lot of resources, so there's no doubt about that.
Before being the PBO, I worked notably at the Department of Finance, but I still have qualities, I promise, and I worked on areas of self-determination and Indigenous Services. From that experience, I can say that self-determination is an important aspect of enabling first nation communities to have better outcomes but, from those years at Finance, it takes a lot of time and energy to do it right. I agree with you on that totally.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Giroux.
I guess there's another question I want to add to the mix. Let's face it: To some extent this is bigger than the country, especially because nothing's been done for over 200 years. On the extent of what we're doing now, this is trail-blazing.
Here we are now, taking on a big bite and working with these communities, but equally as important is not what we're going to have and invest in, it's also what we have from the past. I shouldn't say “we”. I should say “they”—these communities. What's equally as important is not just what we're investing in the new, but also important is what we have to invest in to manage the assets that exist. It could be buildings. It could be pipes in the ground. It could be water, sewer, treatment plants and distribution lines. It could be roads, sidewalks and facilities. The list goes on: schools, health care centres.... Again, the list goes on and on.
That said, do you find it equally as important under that disciplined structure that I referred to earlier not only to worry about, invest in and work with these communities to then ensure they have what they need in the future, but also to manage the assets they have now from the past in terms of their legacy?
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
I don't think I can dispute that.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
With the cost of that, once again, I go back to my original question. It's going to take some time.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Definitely. That's why it's important to have indicators that can track progress over time; it's so Canadians can know the government is going in the right direction or the outcomes that are expected are being realized.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
Yes, and that is going to take time, as well.
Thank you, Mr. Giroux.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jenica Atwin
Thank you, Mr. Badawey.
Madame Bérubé, you have two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Sylvie Bérubé Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Giroux, have you been able to study how much the departments are spending? Has everything that was budgeted for been spent in the years you studied?
If additional funds are allocated and the public service is having trouble meeting its obligations, do these additional funds end up never being spent?
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
This is an issue that we consider at the end of each fiscal year, or rather when the books for a fiscal year are provided to us. Every year, some departments, particularly those with large budgets, such as Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada and Indigenous Services Canada, don't spend all the funds allocated to them. That's largely due to the fact that, during the fiscal year, they don't have the capacity to spend their entire budget, which is not unusual for departments. In fact, they are reprimanded very harshly if they spend more than the budget allocated to them, and that forces all managers to be cautious.
The two departments that deal with Indigenous issues and provide services to Indigenous people tend to have more unspent funds than other departments because of the size of their initial budget.
So the answer to your question is yes, and it's a recurring phenomenon.
Bloc
Sylvie Bérubé Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
In the report, you say that it's hard to specify and meet objectives when it comes to services self-determined by Indigenous peoples at the Department of Indigenous Services. Can you give us the reasons for those difficulties?
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Yes. These are services often delivered by the communities themselves, and the departments have little influence over them. So achieving the department's objectives largely depends on delivery by third parties, the Indigenous communities. There are many of them and they are spread out over a number of regions. Where the indicators are concerned, it's hard for the department to monitor the ability to meet targets from year to year, since that depends on the communities' ability to deliver services, and the communities face a very wide range of realities.
Bloc
Sylvie Bérubé Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Do you know what percentage of the communities are saying no?
