Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 1st, 2022

[Chief Gregory Desjarlais]

Okay.

I want to thank everybody in the House for listening. I want to thank my MP, Shannon Stubbs, for allowing us to come and to share, and to watch Frog Lake and many first nations who are trying to be at these tables, and to help solve the problem of poverty across Canada and make the life of the unborn a better life, the way it was supposed to be on the shared land when the treaty was signed.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Chief Desjarlais.

We'll now proceed to the first round of questions.

Mr. Gladu, I'm told that you are currently on the microphone for the computer, as opposed to the microphone for the headset. I don't know if you know how to switch that on Zoom. It helps the interpreters to understand a little bit better.

While you're doing that, we'll proceed to the first six minutes for the Conservatives. I have Mrs. Stubbs here on the list.

For the Conservatives and the Liberals, given that we only have limited time, if you want to share it with another member, feel free to do so, but you have six minutes.

It's over to you, Mrs. Stubbs.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you, Chair. I appreciate that.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here, and to Chief Desjarlais for always reminding me in Treaty No. 6 that we're all treaty people and we should always have that in our mind as we work together.

I know that JP has said multiple times that it is important for indigenous communities to be able to move from systemic poverty to exactly what you're talking about, Chief—economic reconciliation and self-determination through economic self-sufficiency.

I wonder, Chief Desjarlais, if you would like to tell Canadians and the committee a little bit more about all of your accomplishments and achievements as a community through your many years of responsible resource development, as owners and partners in this sector, as well as recent initiatives you've undertaken—of course, no surprise—leading the way on innovation and environmental responsibility with some future aspirations.

[Chief Gregory Desjarlais]

I can remember back in the 1980s, when some chiefs and leaders had a vision to create Pimee Well Servicing, which employs about 150 first nations people, and we own jointly with seven bands 13 service rigs. Also, with the creation of Seven Lakes, we employ over 400 people, with 52 bands in western Canada represented. We serve Cenovus, Imperial and different industry companies around the federal bombing range.

Just recently, we had one of our councillors create LEAP, and that's a huge project we're leading the way on. We were successful in some grants, and we're trying to look at carbon capture. As I shared earlier, we're one of the 58 proposals in the heartland, by Edmonton, in Fort Saskatchewan, that are indigenous-led.

We talked about the Western Indigenous Pipeline Group. I want to say to everybody—and many of you have probably heard the name—that we seconded Joe Dion to the group to formulate a plan to bring all the nations along the corridor to try to buy for ownership.

I said Frog Lake was at 10,000 barrels at the peak. Whoever had the insight to drill the first well in Frog Lake in 1967, I think about him today. They're probably not with us, or they're in the spirit world, but that's the kind of insight...and that's what I was left to deal with here as the chief.

We're trying our best to create these opportunities for our people, and with that came the creation of FLERC, Frog Lake Energy Resources Corp. Just recently, we signed another deal with West Lake Energy. Instead of punching holes on top of the ground, with this technology we'll be putting many fingers—I think that's what they were called—down below the surface.

When we look at carbon sequestration and we look at air quality, the emitters pollute the air. How do we leave Mother Earth in this state for our people and the ones who are yet to come? You look at fresh water. All these things are for all of us and everybody on the call. It's not just for first nations. You look at the polar caps that are melting. You look at the call to have zero carbon emissions by 2050, but how do we get there together?

I think we're trying to lead the way. We've always been part of the solution as first nations people. We've been talking about this, because somebody's weed is somebody's cure for cancer. When industry says that's just a weed, it's not true; it's somebody's cure for cancer or some major illness. I just wanted to share that much with you.

Thank you.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you.

Chief, the revenue from your resource companies over decades was used to build homes, to offset tuition for hundreds of college and university students, and to build an arena, a field house, and a chuckwagon racetrack. You've provided jobs for indigenous people in your community and for people in the entire region, non-indigenous and otherwise.

Of course, a lot of that work is dependent on sufficient pipeline infrastructure. Would you like to speak to the experience so far of any barriers you've faced in terms of being involved in the indigenous-led group to purchase TMX?

[Chief Gregory Desjarlais]

I think what needs to happen is better communication. We have to have a vision about making Canada a better place for all people, all first nations, and owning up to the wrongs, decades of wrongdoing against the first nations people.

Look at what happened in Grouard. I was born 20 miles from Grouard, in High Prairie. There was an announcement today of these graves.

Let's not hide the wrongs; let's make it right and let's have better communication. Let's take first nations seriously. Let's help them become owners of major infrastructure so that we can help them build homes and we can help them send more kids to school.

I have a population of 900 kids from 18 to 30 years of age. What do the other 800 do? They start a family young, maybe join a gang, maybe sell some drugs or leave the reserve. These are the only options. If you don't have an economy on a first nation, you have to think of something, or you live on welfare and show your kids that.

Why can't we work with the first nations to stand them up where they can show their kids a generation of hard work? In terms of some of the barriers and what needs to really happen, we need to be offered the capital and these loans that we could pay back over time, but we could benefit and get into these major projects that would help.

You know what? We need to have the oil leave Canada and we need to have this sector. For many years, Canada has benefited from the “dirty tar sands”, as people call it, but they will graciously take the dividend. However, the first nations don't get that dividend. You know where the first nation starts, because the county grader turns around and goes back and grades towards the taxpayers per se. That's what the NRTA has really done to our people; it really has put us at the poverty level where we're begging, whereas we should be working together to try to make a better Canada for us.

The biggest barrier is not having that capital, but we are serious and we want to own this infrastructure, such as the TMX. With the Western Indigenous Pipeline Group from Treaty No. 6 all the way to the coast, some of these chiefs say they watch these tankers leave but they also watch these whales flip. However, they don't get a dime off that tanker. How do we come together and make this a reality?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Chief Desjarlais.

Thank you, Mrs. Stubbs.

We'll now go to Mrs. Atwin.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair; and thank you to our witnesses today.

I want to give Ms. Tremblay the chance to continue her presentation and speak about her second topic. I think that it concerned jobs and growth.

[Marie-Christine Tremblay]

Yes. Thank you for giving me the chance to continue.

The second part is much shorter and deals with access to the jobs and growth fund, which is managed by Canada Economic Development for Quebec Regions. The fund seeks to prepare businesses for the future, strengthen their resilience and prepare them for growth.

The program documents clearly state that indigenous‑led organizations and businesses are strongly encouraged to apply. However, when you dig a little deeper and check the applicant's guide, at the end of the list of ineligible clients, a note states that exceptions may be made for indigenous recipients. No details are provided regarding the nature of the exceptions. This lack of clarity discourages indigenous businesses from applying to the program.

We want Canada Economic Development to show more transparency, particularly by clarifying these exceptions and the eligibility criteria for the program. That way, by simply reading the information document, applicants could determine whether they're eligible. In our view, the changes would also ensure that applicants don't think that decisions are solely based on an official's judgment instead of on specific criteria. All this would help build the trust of first nations members in the government.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you for your comments.

[Marie-Christine Tremblay]

Thank you.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

I'd like to ask Chief Desjarlais a question. We had Stephen Buffalo from the Indian Resource Council here just before you. He set up this kind of dichotomy of choice. He said that it's between oil and gas or the Indian Act.

I'd like to hear your comments around that. Are there other sectors you would feel you'd like to get into, or do you feel that oil and gas is the main contributor and the main opportunity for your region and your community? Is there really that dichotomy or are other options available?

[Chief Gregory Desjarlais]

I think there are other areas.

I don't just speak for Frog Lake. I look at the fisheries. I look at the salmon. I also look at the wind projects. We've talked with Northland before. We tried to get one of the projects that were in southern Alberta because we have no choice. You either try to find a partner and get involved, or you just sit back and do nothing.

Oil and gas fluctuate, as we all know. There was a time when we were getting an invoice instead of a dividend.

Look at solar. Without the federal and provincial programs, you can't get involved if you don't have the capital. We look at logging, but at the same time, as a first nation, we look at the air because we all know trees give off the natural oxygen for the air for us to breathe. By removing all the trees, we're cutting our lives short over there and for the unborn.

We're just trying to be diverse in the best way we can and looking at different ways to offset first nations.

Look at the announcements in the province of Alberta about paving and job stimulation. How come Frog Lake or other first nations can't provide pavement and the infrastructure? Instead of just providing two flaggers on a paving of 50 kilometres, why can't we be the lead and the prime contractor?

Those are the kinds of things that we have to look at as leaders of Canada. How do we solve these problems? We have to look bigger and believe that we can do it, because we can do it.

I sell power. We have a cogen here called Strathcona. We own the cogen facility. We own 140 acres of land in Lloyd. When I got in as a chief, we had very little revenue, but we did not sell anything. We adjusted. I don't have a business degree, but I have a lot of common sense.

We have to be cognizant of that. We have to trust each other, communicate with each other and give each other the chance to succeed, because the government has the ability to impact the lives of thousands of first nations people in a good way or in a negative way. Let's choose to impact them in a good way, because we're all treaty people. When our ancestors signed that treaty, it was to share. There was no inclusion of our resources, so that we can't even benefit after almost a hundred years.

Maybe when those kinds of discussions happen, I would have a better, clear and concise answer to what more is available to the first nations besides oil and gas.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much. That was excellent.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

You have 18 seconds.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

I think I'll just use the time to thank you all so much again.

Mr. Gladu, I didn't get to ask you a question, but I really appreciate what you've shared with us today.

I wish you all well, and I hope you have a good rest of your day.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Atwin.

Ms. Gill, you have the floor for the next six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank all the witnesses, Mr. Gladu, Mr. Desjarlais and Ms. Tremblay, for their enlightening and, unfortunately, very short presentations. We would have liked to hear them speak for longer.

Ms. Tremblay, you started out by talking about Canada Post, which really caught my attention. For me, this is a case of discrimination. A right isn't being respected when it comes to first nations. You referred to Wendake several times. However, I want to know whether you agree that this applies to all first nations in remote areas. You spoke about Baie‑Comeau. We can go even further, to northern Quebec, where things are difficult. There isn't any road infrastructure, for example. I imagine that your comments apply to these places as well.

I'll let you answer the question while you continue talking about Canada Economic Development for Quebec Regions, or CED. In my opinion, this matter also involves discrimination. There's talk of exemptions, but no transparency. A right is being taken away arbitrarily. The committee must hear about this so that we can make a recommendation on the issue.

I also want to hear your thoughts on indigenous procurement, Ms. Tremblay.

[Marie-Christine Tremblay]

Thank you for all these questions, which I'll try to answer quickly.

The situation isn't limited to Wendake and Kahnawake. Certainly, in Quebec, these communities have many businesses. They were very good examples to highlight.

That said, in our Canada‑wide study, we found about 100 indigenous communities with postal code errors that identify urban communities as remote.

It's really a Canada‑wide situation, not just a Quebec issue.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Sorry, but I'll interrupt you for a few seconds.

There's the postal code issue, but I wanted to further explore the topic with you. However, I misspoke in my introduction.

Canada Post is also charging truly outrageous rates to some very remote first nations communities engaged in online commerce, in comparison with other regions. We can agree that many first nations communities live in remote areas.

Could this be an additional recommendation that wouldn't necessarily target the private shipping companies, but Canada Post?

[Marie-Christine Tremblay]

Yes, I truly believe so. We live in an era where online commerce plays a huge role and gives businesses a really good opportunity to look beyond their communities and do business across the country, even abroad.

Clearly, this recommendation could also apply to Canada Post.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I didn't give you time to answer the question about procurement, in general, for first nations and their businesses.

Can you elaborate on it?

[Marie-Christine Tremblay]

I'll try to keep it short.

You all know that, in 2019, the Government of Canada set a goal of awarding 5% of federal contracts to indigenous businesses. These contracts provide significant economic development opportunities for businesses.

I don't know the situation across the country. Here, for various reasons, few businesses manage to seize these opportunities. On the government side, the procurement officials want to reach the target. However, they don't know the indigenous businesses or the intermediaries through which to connect with them. On the first nations side, admittedly, not all business owners know where to find calls for bids. When they do manage to access these bidding processes, they're often discouraged by the amount of paperwork involved. In addition, these businesses have had mostly negative experiences with procurement. For example, many calls for bids have been issued without any contracts actually being awarded to indigenous businesses. As a result, this has contributed to an atmosphere of mistrust.

We've been looking at the procurement issue for a number of years now. We've identified a significant way to potentially address this issue. For example, we know that procurement officials can award low dollar value contracts of $25,000 or less without requiring businesses to go through the bidding process. To award these types of contracts, the officials often refer to a list of suppliers with which they do business on a regular basis.

These low dollar value contracts could be good opportunities for indigenous businesses. The businesses wouldn't need to fill out all the paperwork involved in the bidding process. Again, the officials aren't familiar with the indigenous business community and they don't know where to turn.

For this option to become a reality, the offerings of indigenous businesses must be well identified, structured and categorized by business line, so that this information could be passed on to federal department procurement officials for consultation purposes, as required.

The goal of this approach is to start with low dollar value contracts. This would create models that show communities that an indigenous business could obtain a contract through the federal procurement system. This would help to restore their trust in the system. That way, as businesses win contracts, they would gain confidence and develop skills for the overall process, and eventually bid on higher value contracts.

Basically, that's what I wanted to talk about in terms of procurement.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Gill.

We'll now turn the floor over to Ms. Idlout. You have six minutes.