Evidence of meeting #78 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rights.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Shannin Metatawabin  Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
Hayden King  Executive Director, Yellowhead Institute
Shelley Bear  Ochapowace First Nation
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Vanessa Davies

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Good afternoon, everyone. I'd like to call to order meeting number 78 of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

We acknowledge that we meet on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

Pursuant to Standing Orders, we are meeting today in hybrid format.

Lori, it's good to see you. Because we have you, Lori, or Ms. Idlout, on the first panel—I'm a bit informal here—and you know how to run everything, I won't go through all of the instructions.

For the second panel, we have online witnesses, so I'll do a bit more of an explanation at that point.

Now that we're in session, no photos are allowed. No screenshots are allowed.

We'll jump right into it.

I'd like to welcome our two witnesses today. We have Shannin Metatawabin, with the National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association, and Hayden King, executive director of the Yellowhead Institute.

Colleagues, we're going to have lots of time for a good discussion today. Our first panel is going to be about 45 minutes. Then we'll have to suspend and bring in our second panel. That will be about 45 minutes. Then we'll suspend and go into committee business for drafting instructions.

Witnesses, I'll give you five minutes for your opening statements. I use a handy visual cue system. When there are 30 seconds left, I'll give you the yellow card. When time's up, I'll give you the red card, but finish your thought. Don't stop mid-sentence. We want to hear what you're saying.

We're ready to go now, and then we'll go into our rounds of questions after that.

Who would like to go first? We're very open here. We're a very friendly group.

3:35 p.m.

Shannin Metatawabin Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

I'm ready to go.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Okay. If you're ready to go, the floor is yours.

3:35 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Shannin Metatawabin

I understand that there's translation going on. I'm going to slow it down just a little bit, so if there could be a little grace....

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Our staff will greatly appreciate that.

The floor is yours. When you start talking, I'll give you five minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Shannin Metatawabin

[Witness spoke in Cree]

[English]

My name is Shannin Metatawabin. I am the chief executive officer of the National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association. I am also a member of the Fort Albany First Nation of the Mushkegowuk territory.

I would like to thank you for the invitation to speak today. Before I start, I would like to acknowledge that we are on the unceded and unsurrendered Anishinabe Algonquin territory.

The National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association is the representative organization of over 50 indigenous financial institutions that provide developmental lending to hundreds of first nation, Inuit and Métis businesses across Canada.

Indigenous businesses both on and off reserve face many challenges in accessing financing for starting new businesses, but the greatest impediment is the lack of a modern on-reserve land regime that recognizes first nations jurisdiction.

In Canada, as in most of the developed world, a secure land base is the foundation of economic development. Land provides equity to allow access to financing for investment and entrepreneurship, a taxation base to promote community development and a critical input for the development of business opportunities in a range of sectors, including natural resource extraction. The World Bank estimates that real property represents between one half and three-quarters of the wealth of most economies. When governed through effective management and regulatory regimes, land is a primary driver of economic growth.

The national indigenous economic strategy, the first entirely indigenous-led strategy for economic prosperity, identifies many of the challenges in maximizing land for economic development purposes: the high cost of business due to the cumbersome land management provisions of the Indian Act; restrictions on the sale and use of reserve land; and limitations on the use of reserve land for collateral.

I will leave the strategy with the committee so you can use it. The strategy includes a comprehensive series of recommendations regarding land sovereignty, land management and environmental stewardship. I invite your committee to reference this important document in your study.

Indigenous financial institutions have proved to be an important vehicle to overcome these challenges by providing financing to indigenous businesses that would not otherwise have access to mainstream lending. The indigenous financial institutions are an incredible success story.

During a 30-year partnership with the Government of Canada and, since 2014, delivering the aboriginal entrepreneurship program, indigenous financial institutions, with the help of modest federal subsidies, have provided over 52,000 loans, totalling $3.2 billion in lending to first nation-, Inuit- and Métis-owned businesses. Each year, indigenous financial institutions make between $115 million to $125 million in loans, supporting about 1,500 businesses.

Indigenous businesses are a key driver of employment, wealth creation and better socio-economic outcomes for indigenous communities. Every loan provides 3.34 jobs, increases life satisfaction by 72% and increases mental health by 52% and health indicators by 19.9%.

However, since the 1980s, the economy and the nature of business have changed significantly. The number of indigenous small and medium-sized enterprises have been growing as a result of demographics and demonstrable success. The sizes of loans are increasing as a result of the growing businesses and expanding opportunities, yet the annual federal funding has not increased in almost 20 years, and inflation has reduced its value.

Current program resources do not allow indigenous financial institutions to respond to these factors. Forty per cent of indigenous financial institutions are fully loaned out, and there is insufficient capital to respond to the growing demands of indigenous businesses. The National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association suggests that your standing committee take into account the challenges indigenous people face without proper land tenure and call for additional funding for indigenous financial institutions.

Specifically, NACCA has called for an additional $100 million annually of flexible funding to meet the increasing needs of the growing indigenous business sector. Additional funding would result in an increase of $620 million to Canada’s GDP and support 8,600 jobs, with resulting improvements in food security, mental health, health and housing.

During the last election, all major parties committed themselves to undertaking the important step of walking on the path to economic reconciliation. I am here to suggest to you that this reconciliation is not possible if indigenous people continue to be excluded from Canada’s economy and from sharing in Canada’s long history of prosperity. Indigenous nations want to end this systemic economic exclusion and be full partners in this confederation. This is what we mean by “economic reconciliation”.

Kitchi meegwetch.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Thank you for your opening comments.

Mr. King, if you're ready, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Dr. Hayden King Executive Director, Yellowhead Institute

Thank you.

Aaniin, boozhoo kina weyaa.

My name is Hayden King. I'm from Beausoleil First Nation on Gchi'mnissing, which is a small island Indian reserve, an Ojibwa and Potawatomi community, about two hours north of Toronto by car and by boat.

I am also the executive director of the Yellowhead Institute, which is a research and education centre based out of the Toronto Metropolitan University in Toronto. My research and analysis revolves around the land. I am the co-author of the agenda-making report “Land Back”. I study modern treaty implementation revolving around land and resources, and I work on rearticulating Anishinabe diplomacy and law around hunting and land management. This is the context from which I speak to you all today.

I believe that any discussion of land back has to begin with the discussion of land theft. The demands that indigenous people and indigenous young people are making today for restitution are old calls, the oldest calls. The oldest protest in the country is for the return of lands and resources that have been taken “by hooks and crooks”, as Deskaheh once said.

The doctrine of discovery, that piece of international imperial law, was the foundation of the world's greatest plunder, and it's what Canadian courts have relied upon when hearing the first indigenous land disputes. The doctrine of discovery declared indigenous peoples inhuman, not worthy of rights and certainly not worthy of property rights.

When courts realized the basis of Canadian sovereignty might be questioned using this rationale, arguments for possession shifted to treaties. In other words, Canada owns the land by virtue of negotiating treaties, but this isn't quite right either. In Ontario, pre-Confederation treaties were sharing pacts that were almost nearly immediately broken and used to relocate indigenous people, communities and families. The people who call my community home—Beausoleil First Nation or Gchi'mnissing—were relocated four times and pushed west and south to make way for settlement. Over the Great Lakes and into the Prairies, the so-called Confederation-era numbered treaties followed the trend. Treaty commissioners promised one thing and enforced another, and that enforcement was buttressed, supported and upheld by public officials and the courts.

As a common-law legal infrastructure became entrenched in Canada, indigenous people had few avenues to express the view that treaties were not negotiated to surrender or to cede, but to share in a spirit of mutual respect. It didn't help, of course, that the Indian Act made hiring a lawyer illegal.

Elsewhere in the country, treaties simply were not made, which, even by Canadian law inherited from the English, meant that indigenous people still had some form of title to it. However, here, too, indigenous people have struggled to find an audience as the constitutional division of powers has carved up our territories and the responsibility for them among the provinces, along with deploying the concept of Crown lands.

Today, when indigenous people call for land back, especially in those areas where no treaties have been made, the federal government can conveniently hide behind federalism. In this atmosphere of fictive legal possession of indigenous lands, how can we get land back? There are a variety of tools currently deployed, most commonly the specific and comprehensive claims processes, but they rarely transfer land. Instead, they provide compensation as a form of redress to buy land back and, in some cases—and this was the former Crown-indigenous relations minister's position on land back—turn it into Indian land via the additions to reserve policy.

These tools are inadequate. Instead, why not have a framework for the transfer of Crown lands that, rightfully, are indigenous lands, and related government-owned properties and territories, to indigenous people? Why not, perhaps, have a program to support first nations with resources to develop a national land restitution centre and innovate a tax-free way to reclaim land and fee simple?

There are many private citizens and organizations that are increasingly keen to transfer those lands back to indigenous people, but they lack the tools to do so. Building on models and modern treaty contexts, what about comanagement regimes that eventually give way to exclusive indigenous management? What about a renewed approach to criminalizing indigenous people defending their land? What about the development of a framework to discuss what we mean by treaties and treaty implementation, both historical and modern?

Why not, in the interim, as we work all of this out, deploy free, prior and informed consent? That's something the federal government committed to in the United Nations declaration act action plan. While the duty to consult is limited and narrow, it is broad in scope. Perhaps, even through federal legislation, free, prior and informed consent could be deployed to allow indigenous people to have de facto authority and make decisions on their lands and territories, and on the resources that come along with those. Free, prior and informed consent can unlock both land restitution and self-government, in fact.

Regardless of what the federal government decides to do with this study, or with future policy or law, indigenous people will continue to innovate, push and enforce their own vision of land back, making it the next-generation indigenous rights paradigm.

Ahow, meegwetch.

I look forward to the discussion.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Thank you for those comments.

We're going right into our rounds of questions. The first round is six minutes each for four rounds of questions.

I would also like to acknowledge the attendance of Mr. Shields and Mr. Hanley today.

Welcome to our committee.

First up, we have Mr. Vidal.

When you're ready, the floor is yours for six minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the guests for being here today. I appreciate your comments and opening statements.

I'm going to start with you, Mr. Metatawabin. I have a couple of questions for you first.

How long have you been the CEO of NACCA?

3:45 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Shannin Metatawabin

It's been seven years—going on eight, I suppose. It's been a long time.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

It's been a while. You've been at it for a long time. I'm sorry, but that's my point.

I was looking at your website today. It talks about your mission: “To serve as the voice of Indigenous Financial Institutions and as a national advocate for Indigenous business development.” Your vision is “Promoting thriving, prosperous, Indigenous businesses with equitable access to capital and care.”

Within that context, Mr. Metatawabin.... Earlier in the summer, when we were working on this study, we had a fellow here by the name of Mr. Sean Willy. Do you know Sean from Saskatchewan?

3:45 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Shannin Metatawabin

Yes, I know him.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Yes, I think you would.

He talked about some of the use of land by his first nation in northern Saskatchewan. He talked about it being used in the north near their community, but also about some of the work they did around the city of Saskatoon. There's an urban development there that they've had great success developing.

I guess, with all that context, my question for you is not that complicated: How would you like to see first nations utilize land restitution as a way of achieving economic reconciliation? Obviously, you've been working at economic reconciliation for seven years as the CEO of NACCA.

3:45 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Shannin Metatawabin

Yes. I actually started as a business development officer, giving out loans. This whole program was created because our people can't access land to securitize loans. They weren't able to participate in the economy. It's had quite a success: $3.3 billion in lending so far. Communities near urban centres, or communities that can invest in purchasing land near urban centres, are seeing great success.

They are still facing a lot of barriers: timing, as well as lack of capacity and support to ensure they do proper due diligence on any sort of business opportunity. I was speaking with my brother, who helped the Tsuut'ina First Nation out of Calgary. They invested themselves to ensure their opportunity was well thought out, and that they were ready to come to the table to work with the City of Calgary, the province and the federal government, in order to ensure the program and opportunity—you see the ring road finally going around the complete circumference of that city—were realized. Now they are seeing some real benefits to that community. However, the government did not make it easy for them.

I think you have to release the shackles so indigenous people can have some ownership and jurisdiction of land. You heard in my opening comments that half to three-quarters of all wealth comes from land. If we don't have any access to land, we'll never see any wealth.

We need to unlock those opportunities.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Thank you for that.

To pursue that conversation a little, I'll dig into what you just said.

It's obviously no secret that first nations communities are facing challenges, whether it be health care, housing, education, economic opportunity or recreation. There are so many different things. You talked about unlocking economic development of land. How does that directly link back to solving some of these other challenges?

Can you flesh that out a bit for us?

3:50 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Shannin Metatawabin

Without land, you don't really have a culture that has any hope of sustainability. Indigenous Services Canada still has a discretionary spend on health, housing and everything that is indigenous. There's no long-term planning for or long-term investment in that. It's a social spend, and there appears to be no way out of it.

The only way you can really think of to get out of that is to invest in economic opportunities, which include land. If you invest in the community now, you'll see a decrease in spending in the future, because you'll have more opportunities, like the communities that bought into the Clearwater $1-billion opportunity. This is a major industry.

Canada is seeing the slowest growth in major projects and resource development in history, I'd say. Foreign investment is not coming to Canada because of the uncertainty of the indigenous community. Let's provide that certainty back to investors who want to come to Canada and want to partner with us to see prosperity for Canada again, but it's not going to happen without indigenous prosperity.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK

Thank you.

I have just over one minute left, so I'm going to ask my question really quickly to give you a bit more time. I want to give you the opportunity to talk about your indigenous growth fund, your aboriginal entrepreneurship program or the community futures development corporations, and some of the challenges you may be facing as you go forward with some of those programs at this point.

3:50 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Shannin Metatawabin

Thank you for that.

We've been in place for more than 35 years. We have 58 financial institutions from coast to coast to coast helping Inuit, Métis and first nation entrepreneurs. We incubate business. I call it the largest social finance network in Canada, if not the world. It's an OECD best practice that says this is how indigenous people should expand themselves.

The government is launching a social finance fund that's going to be rolling out soon, which, by all indications, looks like it might compete with us a bit, because the market for that social finance fund is indigenous businesses. We've developed this market for 35 years. We don't need competitors in this space.

We've been asking for support through the aboriginal entrepreneurship program to ensure that we have the right support, because you need to invest in something in order for the money to be deployed, and we've always had a lack of capital. We created an indigenous growth fund to be the solution for that access to capital by creating an institutional-grade investment tool to give the private sector an opportunity to invest in our communities, because we give out those loans for members and our members give that to the entrepreneurs.

However, you have to enable that capital to get to that entrepreneur, and we have not seen an increase in that support. We're asking for about $100 million a year. That will enable us to create and build out that ecosystem to ensure that we're giving the opportunity to every entrepreneur who needs it.

Half of our members are CFs, and right now, ISED is creating a barrier for our members to even use their loan portfolios to access our loan. ISED helped us create it, but it's preventing our members from having access to it. Therefore, we need some help to have the minister allow CFs—community futures development corporations—to access our growth fund.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Thank you.

We're going to go now to Mr. Battiste, who will have six minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Thank you for that.

I'd like to thank Mr. King for your history. I think you did a really good job of painting the picture of the dispossession of indigenous lands in Canada.

With that said, my question is for Shannin. When we started this study, the premise was that, if we were able to restitute lands back to indigenous communities, such as through ATRs—additions to reserves—as well as through creating urban reserves in municipalities.... I think there is a strong business case that this would not create a decline in growth, but actually create more growth in Canada.

You referenced Membertou in the Clearwater deal. Membertou is located in the heart of Sydney, Nova Scotia, and is one of the largest employers—not only of its community members but also in the Cape Breton Regional Municipality as a total.

I'm wondering if you could speak to why it would be a good investment to make sure that indigenous communities have urban reserves, and the kind of economic impact they can have for Canada as a whole if we were to use that model for success for economic reconciliation across Canada.

3:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Shannin Metatawabin

Let's remember that indigenous people were separated from the market. We were placed on the individual reserves away from the market, so that Canada could be prosperous and access all those lands. By being separate from the economy, we're in the situation we're in. Canada has a people that are in poverty within the nation, which shouldn't be the case.

Allowing some of these modifications to land tenure ensures that indigenous people can participate in the economy. Indigenous people are not going anywhere. We are going to be here. We have something to provide to Canada and to the GDP. We have a more than $100-billion opportunity. Per capita, we should be at $75 billion right now. We're not anywhere near that. We're at about $30 billion, from the last study that was done.

If we support the mechanism of economic development for indigenous communities, including capital, business support services and making sure that we have the right institutions in place, then indigenous people will provide prosperity for Canada because we're growing at four times the Canadian average. A lot of our youth don't have opportunities in this country. We're going to have a million indigenous youth by 2027. Let's make sure that they have jobs, businesses and opportunities, so that they can contribute to the economy.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Quite simply, do you think that the creation of urban reserves in municipalities across Canada would add to the economic growth of those municipalities and of Canada in general?

October 24th, 2023 / 3:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association

Shannin Metatawabin

Yes. If you look at any of the leakage studies that are done for centres like Thunder Bay, Saskatoon and all the major centres that support indigenous communities in the north or around it, you'll see that there is a large amount of money creating an economy. Communities are already buying up land near urban centres.

If we can improve that process of transferring it to reserve, then all of a sudden you're going to have a hub of businesses. In Saskatoon, some of the communities have land all around Saskatoon. You're seeing that all across the country. If we made it a little bit easier for them to do it.... They want to invest because they want to be close to the market. They want to hire their people, who are moving to the urban centres. They can create services and products.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

I have about a minute left for my last question.

Shannin, you talked about land as capital.

An emerging theme that we've heard consistently from indigenous witnesses is that they see land as more than just a capital asset that is property to be accessed for funds. They see it more as something they're connected to. They feel like they have stewardship of it.

How would you manage to use land as a form of capital for loans when communities don't want that land to be removed from that connection to those indigenous communities? Is there a way we can do that innovatively, where the land acts as capital without the further separation of indigenous communities from their lands?