Evidence of meeting #78 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rights.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Shannin Metatawabin  Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
Hayden King  Executive Director, Yellowhead Institute
Shelley Bear  Ochapowace First Nation
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Vanessa Davies

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it.

The motion reads:

That it be reported to the House that the committee supports the development of the gas-export project Ksi Lisims LNG, which will build a 12 million-metric-ton-a-year LNG facility and contribute to economic reconciliation with the Nisga'a Nation and contribute economic benefits to communities in northern B.C., and that the committee asks the government to remove all necessary regulatory roadblocks to this project and allow Ksi Lisims LNG to move forward expeditiously.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Thank you.

That is being distributed, so everybody will have it. That's just putting it on notice, so there's no debate on it.

Now we're ready to move on.

Ms. Bear, welcome. Can you introduce your first nation for us, please?

4:35 p.m.

Chief Shelley Bear Ochapowace First Nation

It's Ochapowace.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Okay.

Welcome to our committee today. You'll have five minutes now for an opening statement, and then we'll get into a round of six minutes of questions for each of the parties. That may be about as much time as we have for our discussion today.

When you're ready, Ms. Bear, the floor is yours.

4:35 p.m.

Ochapowace First Nation

Chief Shelley Bear

I would like to thank you for asking the Kakisiwew-Ochapowace Nation to appear as a witness at this very important hearing regarding the restitution of land to first nations.

My name is Okimaw Iskwew Shelley A. Bear, chief of our nation. I have been involved in first nations politics for decades in different capacities. As well, I've had the opportunity to have had passed on to me much of the oral history of our peoples.

The Kakisiwew-Ochapowace Nation is a signatory to Treaty 4. Prior to that, our peoples date back hundreds of years living off these lands provided by the Creator. We lived by hunting, fishing, trapping, trading and maintaining our way of life on extensive tracts of land throughout parts of what we now call Canada and the United States.

Treaty 4, signed by our leaders and the Crown, unequivocally promised that by agreeing to share this land, we would maintain our way of life. Everything else negotiated was on top of what we already had. This was to be enjoyed by Kakisiwew and its peoples to ensure our posterity forever.

I want to share what took place during Treaty 4 negotiations in 1874. This was passed on to me by my late grandfather and late chief Richard Poorman. Chief Kakisiwew and Chief Kawacatoose carried sacks of dirt and placed them on the negotiating table. Chief Kawacatoose then asked treaty commissioner Morris how many sacks of money he'd brought, and stated that for each sack of money, they could have a sack of dirt in exchange. The chiefs went on to strongly assert that “this country is not for sale”. Of course, this never made it into the treaty transcripts, but this exchange has been passed down through the generations.

These words illustrate our ancestors' deep connections to the lands and how such an idea as selling our lands, or country, was a concept that our people couldn't grasp. It also illustrates how our words during treaty deliberations were misunderstood, misinterpreted or totally struck from the transcripts.

This is why our present leaders understand things differently. I'm referring to the agreement to share the land to the “depth of a plow”. These words were also struck from the transcripts of the treaty as understood by our peoples.

When Canada transferred the administration of lands and resources to the prairie provinces in 1930 through the Natural Resources Transfer Agreement, the first nations people of the prairie provinces were not consulted or even informed. The NRTA resulted in an incredible breach of our treaties, a breach that was unlawful back in 1930 and is still unlawful today. The exercise of our right to hunt, fish, trap and gather is fundamental to the treaty promises that were made to first nations. Without our lands and resources, the exercise of our rights will be gone, as will our traditions, ceremonies and languages.

When the Crown came upon our lands, they used the doctrine of discovery, which allowed the Crown to claim sovereignty over our lands. This doctrine means that when a nation “discovers” land, it directly acquires rights to that land, but there were many first nations on Turtle Island. We were not discovered. These doctrines need to be put to rest. They continue to oppress our nations.

This oppression is evident in the Saskatchewan First Act, Saskatchewan's unlawful assertion of jurisdiction over lands and resources that rightfully fully belong to first nations. The Saskatchewan First Act is a direct threat to our inherent treaty and constitutional rights, especially when the province says they have exclusive jurisdiction over the natural resources within our treaty and traditional territories.

Canada was built on first nations land. This country has benefited from the colonization of our peoples in many ways, most notably in terms of the theft of our lands and our bountiful resources. In order for our nations to truly become sovereign and able to provide for our citizens, we need our land back.

In the words of Jody Wilson-Raybould, “True Reconciliation is broken down into three core practices—Learn, Understand, and Act”.

First nations have been studied and analyzed for decades, yet we are still plagued with poverty, addiction and despair. What we need today is for Canada and mainstream society to learn about what we need. We need mainstream government leaders, their government bureaucrats and Canadian society to understand our rights and why we have a special relationship with the Crown.

First nations don't keep asking for handouts like many in this country believe. We want what is rightfully ours. We want to establish and maintain respectful relationships with our neighbours. We need Canada to understand that the rights we negotiated under treaty need to be respected. Until those rights are respected, we cannot achieve true reconciliation.

Finally, we need Canada, mainstream society and first nations to act. We need to put our words into action and deliver on the promises made under treaty. We need to work to that end in order for our nations to benefit and be truly equal to other Canadians. We want our children and grandchildren to have a fighting chance in our country. We deserve that. Our children and grandchildren deserve that. We owe them that.

The colonial practices of the past cannot continue. We need to redefine our relationship with each other and work toward true reconciliation. To me, reconciliation is “land back” that is fair and justified, because without the land, we have no home or no way to exercise our rights and pass down our sacred teachings to our children, grandchildren and those yet to come.

Thank you for allowing me to be on the agenda today.

Ekosi.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Thank you, Chief Bear, for your opening comments.

We're going to go right into our first round.

Mr. Viersen, I have you first. You'll have six minutes.

October 24th, 2023 / 4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to move the motion that I put on notice a while back, around the losses of churches in the communities in my riding and around the country.

I read that motion into the record a few meetings back. I would like to get that motion to a vote today. It doesn't ask for a study or anything like that. It just asks for a report to the House. I think we can get that done here today.

Over 80 church buildings have been reported burnt in this country. Most of these have been on first nation reserves and were used by local indigenous people. These losses of church buildings have been devastating to these communities. These churches are places of milestones like weddings, funerals, baptisms and that sort of thing.

Community members have come to me and shown their displeasure for this. Chief Allan Adam of the Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation—

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU

I have a point of order.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Hold on a second, Mr. Viersen.

Ms. Idlout, you have a point of order.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU

I remember that we had agreed that we wouldn't discuss that motion until after this study.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

It is a motion that's in order and Mr. Viersen has the floor.

The clock is running. I'm going to stop the clock for a second.

We had this discussion last time about moving motions. Bosc and Gagnon actually addresses the issue. For reference's sake, it is in chapter 12, page 565. The first sentence of the second paragraph indicates, “The moving of a motion which does not require notice typically ends the speech in which it is included.”

That principle tends to carry through in other committees I've been at where, if a motion is raised during the allotted timeslot, it will go until the motion is debated and dispensed with. If we run out of time, then the next speaking slot goes to the next party. That's how we're going to proceed with this.

You do still have four and a half minutes. The floor remains yours until we dispense with this.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Super.

I just wanted to get Chief Allan Adam of the Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation on the record here. He said that he was devastated to watch their church burn in his community. He said, “Where do we go now for funerals or to ask for prayers? [This] never should have happened. It was uncalled for.”

Over the summer, one of the oldest churches in Alberta was burnt down in Grouard. It was St. Bernard church. I would really like to recognize that and give our condolences as a committee to that community and make sure that this doesn't happen any longer in Canada. It's outrageous that churches are being burned down across the country.

I can read my motion once again:

That it be reported to the House that the committee condemn the arson and attacks on over 80 churches across Canada and in particular extend their condolences to the community of Grouard and Kapawe'no First Nation with the loss of Saint Bernard Church, one of the oldest churches in Alberta, a piece of history and a building that holds memories for generations of community members and that the committee reaffirm freedom of religion and assembly and call for those responsible for these attacks to be brought to justice.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Thank you, Mr. Viersen.

We'll go through the speaking list that I have.

First, I have Mr. Battiste, then Mr. Carr, Mr. Kurek, Mr. Powlowski and Madame Gill. That's the speaking order we have.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

With what has happened over the past few years with reconciliation and with churches and with the Pope coming to apologize, there's a deep need for reflection and reconciliation, but I really want to get to the end of this study. We've called to adjourn debate on this. I would like to call to adjourn debate on this if that's what we can do, so we can hear the rest of the study. However, if we have to, then I would rather discuss it in camera because it does have a way of triggering a lot of people who went through Indian residential schools and with the things they are going through. I wouldn't want to have this in camera, but if you're going to force a vote on this right now, then I'd like to call it to a vote, with us voting against.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

I just need to clarify, because I've heard two things. One of them was to adjourn debate and one was to call the vote, two very different things. To adjourn debate is a motion that is required to be acted upon without hearing any further speakers, and if we do the vote, then I have my speakers list I need to get through.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

Then I vote to adjourn the debate.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

I will call the question on that. Do you want it recorded, or can we just do a show of hands?

4:50 p.m.

An hon. member

I'd like a recorded vote.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

(Motion agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)

Debate is adjourned, and we will continue on with our questions.

There are still 21 seconds on the clock.

Mr. Viersen, the floor is yours.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

On a point of order, Chair, according to Bosc and Gagnon, I believe that, from the moment that the motion was moved, the clock would have been paused. Then it would be restarted with the amount of time that Mr. Viersen had left.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

No, that's a discussion we had last week and I indicated that we had come forward with the ruling, so the ruling that I have made is that the clock is not stopped. The person has the duration of their period for questioning, and if it hits the end, which we just did, it goes to the next person.

Mr. Viersen.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Just on that point of order, when you read Bosc and Gagnon to us you said a motion without notice, but my motion had notice, so perhaps you should review that.

I will cede the rest of my time at this point, but I just ask you to review that. My motion was with notice.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Point taken. I realize that, and I said it's a principle that has been carried forward to committees for motions with notice as well, so it's just a way of keeping the dialogue going, but I appreciate your ceding the floor.

We will go on to Mr. Battiste, who will have six minutes.

I will go back to the clerk to revisit that, and the next time it comes up I will give you my decision.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Thank you.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John Aldag

Mr. Battiste, you have six minutes.