Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 4th, 2022

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you.

Minister Miller, what often came up in our last study on barriers to economic development for indigenous peoples were the challenges that the lack of affordable housing creates. I know that it consistently ranks as one of the top priorities, if not the top priority, for first nations in my riding, including self-governing first nations.

I was hoping you could speak a little bit more to the indigenous-led projects or partnerships related to housing and infrastructure that your department is involved in.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

First of all, I acknowledge some of the confusion that can be created. Whether it falls under Minister Hajdu or Crown-Indigenous Relations or CMHC, it's difficult to navigate for MPs, and it's difficult to navigate for indigenous communities. That is part of the job we have in parsing and figuring it out, so that we're putting our best foot forward to communities that are in dire need.

When it comes to self-governing nations, that is one of the distinctions we funded in budget 2021, with over $500 million going to self-governing nations across the country, whether in Quebec...or a good number of which are in B.C., including Sechelt, which benefited from close to $10 million of investments in affordable housing.

It isn't enough and I readily acknowledge that. It's something that we'll have to relentlessly invest in to close the gap by 2030. One of the challenges is quantifying it. Self-governing nations, as part of their advocacy, put forward a very well-thought-out analysis of where the gap is and what was needed to close it, and budget 2021 allocated those amounts.

We don't go around patting ourselves on the back on it, because that gap is there and it is expressed in real human need. However, we're willing to move on it, whether it's through these investments or it's through rapid housing or others. Even, I would note, B.C.—that's where we need provincial governments on board—is leading the way with its own investments into housing, which are very significant.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Mr. Weiler, you have about 10 seconds.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I'll cede my time then. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Weiler.

Ms. Gill, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank Ministers Miller and Hajdu and their officials, and Ms. Roset‑Zuppa and Mr. Williams, for testifying before the committee today.

I have a huge number of questions, as I am the member of Parliament for a constituency where almost 15% of the population is indigenous. It is a vast territory where people live in places with no air or road access. Sometimes, they travel from one community to another by snowmobile. The needs are great. The communities are remote, yes, but they are also isolated.

There is one thing I would like to find out because I find it important. There is a lot of general talk about figures and strategies. There is talk of budget 2021 and what was in the budget statement. But we don't really see anything concrete, anything actually happening, with a few exceptions I might mention in my own constituency. This is all about Maslow's pyramid. Shelter is a basic need. We need to be protected and physically safe in order to live. It's as simple as that.

I would like to talk about the many impacts that the housing shortage has on First Nations. Ms. Hajdu told us about COVID‑19, of course. Its effects are made exponentially worse by the housing shortage. However, I would like to hear more from her about other effects because COVID‑19 is a recent problem going back to 2019, whereas the shortage has been going on for 60 years.

Can she talk about a number of other effects that the housing shortage has on First Nations?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Gill.

Thank you very much for your questions and your comments around the effects that a lack of housing has on people. You're right that it's not just health effects, although those are well documented and well studied. Many people consider housing to be the foundation of wellness, whether we're talking about physical wellness, mental wellness or the ability to learn, grow and play.

I also spoke to many indigenous leaders over the last several months about the ongoing strain of crowded conditions. People told very moving stories of housing that would incorporate 15 to 20 individuals in a household, and—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I have to interrupt you, Madam Minister, because I would like to move on. I see that you are well aware of the extent of these problems. We are talking about people's physical well-being.

In our last session, we talked about economic development, among other things. I would like to know whether you also agree with me in saying that the housing problem cuts across other issues. We are talking about economic development and about other topics that we have put on the committee's agenda. But, in reality, all those topics flow mostly from the housing issue.

Do you also agree with that?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

In principle, absolutely. Without a safe place to call home, it's very hard for people to study. It's very hard for people to raise families, for people to—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Excuse me, Ms. Hajdu. I feel that I may not have been clear.

I am talking about the committee's studies, not studies by individuals. I was talking about our studies here at the committee, where everything is interrelated. The housing issue relates to everything else. That's what I meant.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think we're agreeing.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

So I will have some other questions for you at that time, because the clock is still ticking.

You said that you wanted to invest $6 billion to eliminate the housing shortage by 2030. Just looking at what is happening in Quebec, very specifically for First Nations—I am not talking about Inuit—we have $3.9 billion to eliminate the current housing shortage in five years. You also know that the demographic curve is exponential. It means that we will never even manage to eliminate the shortage. That is according to my calculations. You could do the calculations again, it's basic arithmetic. Just in Quebec, with 225 units per year, it will take 44 years before the housing shortage is eliminated. That doesn't even consider population increase.

Does your department consider it?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It is something that our department takes into consideration and the $6-billion number that I referenced was the amount in budget 2021 alone. In fact, the department is working closely with indigenous leaders, communities and researchers to understand the gap and to be able to plan out to 2030 what those investments will look like in order to close the gap.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Do you have a figure already?

The point is that $6 billion is not a lot. Nevertheless, it was in the statement. What has been allocated from that amount of $6 billion?

You should have a figure. Then, by the rule of three, we should be able to arrive at the amount we will need in 2030.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you, Madame Gill.

Firstly, I'll just note that you referenced that $6 billion is not a lot. I anticipate your support then for budget 2022 as we continue these investments in housing.

I will turn to our officials to talk a little bit about how that $6 billion is being allocated and spent.

Deputy Fox.

[Christiane Fox, Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services]

Good afternoon. Thank you for the question.

To answer specifically about the $6 billion, up to now, we have invested $1 billion in projects in Quebec. That means more than 200 new units and more than 1,000 renovations. It also includes utilities and water. So we are continuing to work with our partners in Quebec.

We also have examples of innovation. We have a project with Quebec that essentially funds new ways for First Nations to invest and access capital. It's a method that we are trying out in the department in order to turn the page and look at new funding models. The model has been successful, with new projects starting. So we will be pleased to share that information with you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

We will now move to Ms. Idlout.

Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

I have heard many questions and I know that the federal government has promised many thousands of monies for many years now and we expect to get the money to build houses. What you asked previously, it impacts me. There are questions I need to ask you on behalf of Nunavut, which are also very important. We have a very bad shortage of housing, probably the worst in Canada.

I have a question. I would like a clear response when I ask you this question.

Firstly, I want to ask Minister Miller, when the Prime Minister visited Nunavut in August, he made a promise to invest $306 million in Nunavut housing. Would you provide a breakdown of when this money will be delivered to Nunavut?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Thank you, MP Idlout, for that.

I want to thank the interpreter for translating from Inuktitut into English.

We made that commitment. It is something we intend to commit.... I can't speak as a cabinet minister to the content and timing of budget. I fully expect our government to fulfill that. I know the work we are doing in our department to continue to work with ITK and land claim organizations, and not only working with the incredible work they've done to put together numbers. A lot of the time with advocacy organizations—and I don't blame them—we throw numbers at each other. There's a lot of work that's been put in by ITK into crystallizing that into a tangible number that we can then turn to finance and work on, and work through budgetary cycles.

I know that sounds like technical speak, but it is very important work, and it's a testament to the level of advocacy that's been achieved.

We have, through budget 2018 and the latest budget in 2021, put close to over a billion dollars in Inuit Nunangat. The current budget 2021 numbers on behalf of the advocacy organizations are not necessarily focused on housing. The previous amounts are, but clearly the lack that you've identified is there. It's stuff that we have to keep working on with you and the work that you're doing, MP Idlout, but also with ITK, the territorial governments and land claim holders.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

You mentioned earlier the dollars that were committed in 2018. You also mentioned the amounts that were committed in 2019 and 2020. That built 83 houses. At the moment, Nunavut needs between 3,000 and 3,330 homes.

Do you think this is an adequate amount of money that you're committing? Only 83 houses were built with the commitments that were made.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I would answer that in two parts. First, on the timing, we've seen challenges with the short construction season. It's not an excuse; it's just a fact. Obviously, it can't go fast enough. The logistical challenges through COVID are undeniable.

As to the quantum, both Minister Hajdu and I have said publicly that it is not adequate. It is not sufficient, and we have to continue investing.

I want to apologize to you for the words I used in the House with respect to the average price of a house in Nunavut. I understated it. I believed it to be $400,000 or $500,000, and most recently I found out it's closer to $600,000. There's been a huge spike over the last year. That's been highlighted on the floor of the territorial parliament. That is something we're also tackling. There is also a third aspect to that, which is a spike in prices, which should be part of this study, because it does impact delivery and results on the ground.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

With regard to housing in Nunavut, the HUMA report on indigenous housing, which this committee's study is building on, stated, “Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada recognized that funding was not sufficient or consistent to meet needs, and that more work was needed to address housing needs.”

Regarding the work that has been done by CIRNAC to address the housing needs since your appearance at HUMA in the last Parliament, what has changed within that department?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

You have my apologies. I don't remember the date of that appearance. What we rushed to do, and that was thanks to the advocacy of Natan Obed and ITK, was that, once the amounts in budget 2021 were approved, they moved quickly through Treasury Board, so we could deploy them. Understanding the short construction season, understanding that those allocations needed to be made on a destinations basis, and getting those monies out as quickly as possible, obviously, there have been logistical challenges and there will continue to be logistical challenges.

What we've heard and learned through that study has been confirmed through COVID and the Inuit experience. Overcrowding is the principle factor driving the unacceptable tuberculosis rates in this country. This is a human condition. It isn't necessarily one that has to do with bricks and mortar. It's about people and the ability to live in an uncrowded situation, which, as I said in my introductory remarks, affects 52% of Inuit.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

We'll now proceed to the second round, and we'll try to get in as much as we can.

We'll start with the Conservatives, who have five minutes.

I have a blank here. I'm not sure who the Conservative is who will speak, but you have five minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I'll take that, Chair. Thank you.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Witnesses, we heard recently from the Lands Advisory Board, Robert Louie, in fact, that lands are central to first nations traditions, identity and prosperity. They are a crucial asset for advancing self-determination, economic development and well-being.

This goes to Minister Hajdu, but, Minister Miller, you're welcome to interject if you want.

Do you agree that first nations should be governing and managing their own land interests?