Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 4th, 2022

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Since you addressed me, I will answer yes. The goal of this government is self-determination and self-government.

However, as the minister of crown relations, I would say that Minister Miller has a lot to say about this subject.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

My answer is yes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Okay.

Robert Louie also told us that the Lands Advisory Board, in partnership with the B.C. Land Title and Survey Authority, has been working on a proposal for over a year now to establish an independent, first nation operated land registry system for first nations with land codes under an earlier framework agreement. This proposal has been submitted to both departments, ISC and CIR.

Is there an update as to where that submission is at?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

As an overarching comment, there needs to be more work done in this country as to how land is held, and it doesn't have to be the way I hold my property. I think that's one of the criticisms that has been fairly levelled on some of the self-governing work that we've done. That work is largely incomplete.

Some of the work that's been done in and around land codes has been groundbreaking, and some communities are benefiting from them but it doesn't fit for everyone. It is an impediment to moving forward on the self-governing status and, frankly, is one of the factors that are driving communities to choose to remain under the Indian Act, which is an unacceptable proposition, we all agree.

There is work being done. It is painstaking work, and it's work that we have to keep pushing.

I wanted to offer those comments, because it isn't simply the frame in which you're putting it. That is a very important one in terms of the speed at which we're deploying programs that have already been accepted to and codeveloped, but there's also a much larger discussion to be had, as we work towards ensuring that land is given back.

Daniel, do you have any additions to that?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I'll continue. I can't hear anything.

It's been 26 years since the Framework Agreement on First Nation Land Management was signed. One hundred and thirteen first nations have enacted land codes and report that under no circumstance would they consider returning to the Indian Act.

Could you basically update the committee...? First of all, you answered my question that you support moving to that type of model. Is there a plan—or where are you in that plan if you are planning it—to have a first nations housing authority replace the current system that we have now?

That's kind of a broad question.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I don't have a clear answer to that. I would say that those solutions aren't ones that we impose. In reflection, while there are well over a hundred communities that would choose to organize themselves that way, it isn't perfect for everyone. The ones that have availed themselves of it, have availed of it in a way that serves their people.

That is all I would have to offer on that. On an independent housing authority, perhaps Minister Hajdu or some of the officials could chime in on that.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I can give an overarching endorsement of Minister Miller's top line, which is that it's not going to look the same all across the country. This has to be indigenous-led and indigenous-supported, and each region and each community has a different perception of how that work will unfold.

Deputy Minister Fox, you've been involved in these conversations, and perhaps you can add a few comments.

[Christiane Fox]

I would make maybe two comments.

On the indigenous housing institution, this is definitely something we're looking into. It's been proposed by the national housing council as an idea to address remote, urban and northern housing challenges. As we look at transferring service, as we look at self-determination, I would say that's definitely a model we're looking on.

When it comes to the proposal with respect to the indigenous first nations land registry and land codes, I think it is an important part of self-determination. We see that as sort of stepping away from being under the Indian Act, which is a really important self-determination action.

We obviously work very closely with indigenous communities when it comes to additions to reserve. Sometimes those are straightforward, but sometimes extremely complex, as you can imagine, with provincial, territorial and other first nations. However, we look to see how we can support our indigenous partners as they work through those issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Schmale.

We'll now go to Mr. Powlowski.

Mr. Powlowski, you have five minutes.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you to the ministers for being here.

My question is for Patty. She knows, but for the sake of other people in the committee who don't know, she's sitting right now in Fort William First Nation, which is in my riding.

As she knows, a very big issue—in fact, it's the one most important issue that Chief Collins of the Fort William First Nation came to me with—is the issue of getting federal funding for a chronic care home in Fort William First Nation. Certainly, COVID has illustrated I think for all Canadians the importance of chronic care homes and the fact that the elderly should be able to, hopefully, spend the last years of their lives in good surroundings. That isn't always the case in Canada.

I know, and she probably knows, that it's been a bit of a battle trying to find funding for that. Hopefully, we've found a source of funding in the green and inclusive fund from Infrastructure Canada. The problem, I think, is fairly ubiquitous in first nation communities and probably also among the Inuit. Is there funding specifically—either from you or CMHC, which may want to comment on this—for chronic care homes in indigenous communities?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, MP Powlowski.

Technically, today I'm not on the Fort William First Nation. I'm in my constituency office in my riding, but it's still within the territory of Fort William First Nation.

You're right. I've spoken with Chief Collins as well about this project and about the idea that indigenous people are often facing care needs far away from home or in non-culturally appropriate settings. That's certainly something that I think we can all relate to as members of Parliament for various regions across this country. My office is working with Minister LeBlanc's office on this application to the green infrastructure fund.

The question of infrastructure priorities is different across the country. Of course, each community has been completing or has completed their infrastructure planning process, and some of those do contain plans or desires to create all kinds of different care facilities.

Maybe I can turn to Chris, who can talk a bit about what she's seeing in that infrastructure planning that's happening across the country.

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, definitely. I think that $6-billion investment is really meant to be for schools, for health infrastructure and for other types of facilities.

In some cases, we're seeing creative approaches to multi-purpose buildings. You may have your indigenous early learning and child care centre in the same area as you would have a long-term care home. Between the programs at Indigenous Services Canada, CMHC and Infrastructure, we really try to look at what is that community infrastructure plan, what that asset management plan looks like and then how we can best support it through the various Government of Canada programs.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

To follow up, maybe I can ask someone from the department about this. From my office, when we look at how to assist indigenous communities with this kind of problem, we don't really know where to start. We go to Indigenous Services, CMHC and then the Ministry of Health.

Is there any one place or person that communities can go to and say “this is the issue” and ask which ministry they should start off with to try to address the problem?

[Christiane Fox]

I'm happy to take that. Thank you for the question.

What I would say is that for our regional executives across the country we do have a footprint across the country at Indigenous Services Canada. They are really meant to be that single window, where they work with communities on what their needs are. Sometimes, as you note, it can be something that Indigenous Services Canada provides, and at times it's broader than that.

I think that it can be—and we can appreciate this—overwhelming to navigate all of the government programs, so we really are trying to take a community-centred approach to see what the needs are, what the priorities of the community are and then how can we turn around and work with our colleagues in the federal system to try to address some of those needs. That's the approach we try to take. We work very closely with CMHC and Infrastructure Canada in that regard.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Mr. Powlowski, you have about 10 seconds.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Ms. Roset-Zuppa, you mentioned hidden homelessness. You didn't explain it. What is this?

[Patricia Roset-Zuppa]

Thank you for that question.

Hidden homelessness is the case of people being homeless but not going to shelters, for example. They might not have their own stable housing but are couch surfing with family members or friends, or going from home to home, so we don't necessarily have a good recording of it.

I must say that, for further experience and expertise, when it comes to homelessness, we do a lot of work with our colleagues at Infrastructure Canada. I hope that helps answer your question in brief.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Powlowski.

I am now going to give the floor to Mrs. Gill.

Mrs. Gill, you have two minutes and 30 seconds.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have another question for Minister Hajdu, but Mr. Miller can answer as well.

We talked earlier about demographics. I wanted to know whether housing forecasts take demographics into consideration.

I was talking about First Nations, but I would also like to talk about Inuit. If I recall correctly, in 2017, a Senate committee said that as the needs for housing in Nunavut were increasing, the funding was decreasing. The watershed years, so to speak, were 2021 and 2022.

I would like to know whether you have corrected that situation.

Thank you.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

As a short answer, Madame Gill, yes, the planning does take into account growth projections.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

That answers my first question.

However, I did ask two at the same time. My second question was about Nunavut.

As I was saying, the funding curve was decreasing at the same time as the curve showing the demand for housing was increasing. That was in 2017, your party was in power at that time.

I would like to know whether there is an up-to-date table showing the funding amounts allocated to housing needs. Those data could be useful for all communities. It would be helpful to be able to have data like that.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

We can certainly arrange to provide the data to the committee.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you very much.

I have one last question, if I have time, Mr. Chair.

We have also talked about remoteness and isolation. I was wondering whether that was considered as a factor. We talked about economic development and that, to build a house in Nunavut, or on an island, or 2,000 km away, the cost of materials and labour are not the same as in other regions. Clearly, $300,000 in one region is not the same amount as in others.

Do you consider those factors in the grants you make available and the work you do?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Yes, Madame Gill, there is isolation, the increased cost of delivery and materials in the north, and in fact some delays. In budget 2021, there was an additional $134 million related to the cost of COVID-related delays.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Perhaps I can provide a little clarification.

Ms. Hajdu, you say the North, but, in Quebec, isolated or remote communities aren't really in the North, even though the conditions are the same. I would like to know whether it applies to those communities as well.

Thank you.