Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 4th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Good afternoon, everyone.

Welcome to the eighth meeting of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

We are gathered here today on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

Today, we are starting our second study on the effects of the housing shortage on indigenous peoples across Canada.

To begin the discussion, we are pleased to welcome the Hon. Marc Miller and his officials, and the Hon. Patty Hajdu and her officials. We also welcome Patricia Roset‑Zuppa, vice-president, policy development at the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

After the first hour, we will be very pleased to welcome another group of witnesses.

We will be receiving national and regional indigenous organizations in the second hour. We will have Regional Chief Cindy Woodhouse, Assembly of First Nations; Natan Obed, president, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami; and Chief Lance Haymond, Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador.

Those of you taking part in the session in person are familiar with the health measures, so I will not repeat them.

You also know the procedures that we follow in these committee meetings.

In order to maximize our time, without further ado, I invite Minister Hajdu to take the floor.

Minister, you have five minutes.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Minister of Indigenous Services]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I am very pleased to be here with you.

I'm very happy to be with you this morning.

I am physically on the Robinson-Superior Treaty territory area and the homeland of the Fort William First Nation, with, of course, contributions by many Métis people over the years.

I'm very honoured to be speaking to the committee today. I'm thrilled that you're conducting this study on the ability of indigenous people to have adequate, safe and affordable housing. It's an absolute necessity for the work of reconciliation, for safety and security and, in fact, for the economic development and prosperity of indigenous peoples.

Unfortunately, successive governments have not prioritized housing for indigenous peoples. As a result, indigenous peoples are more likely to live in overcrowded homes and experience higher rates of all kinds of challenges, including mould and other poor housing conditions.

The 2016 Census of Population estimates that roughly half of indigenous people live in a dwelling in need of some type of repair, while only one-third of the general population lives in a dwelling of similar conditions. The census also showed that indigenous peoples living on‑reserve are about eight times more likely than non-indigenous peoples off-reserve to live in crowded conditions.

You can see that we have a lot of work to do. Indeed, access to adequate and safe housing is connected to building healthier and more prosperous communities.

Without a safe place to call home, inadequate housing affects children and families, and it makes them more likely to experience respiratory problems. They have a higher risk of contracting infectious diseases like tuberculosis, COVID-19 and, of course, the ongoing mental health challenges that are exacerbated by crowded living.

I've heard many examples of how inadequate housing has affected indigenous people and leaders from coast to coast bring this up as one of the top issues that their communities are facing, but this is not a new situation. I'm thrilled that my mandate from the Prime Minister asks me “to make immediate and long-term investments” to close the housing gap “by 2030”, and I ask the members of this committee to support the government as we prepare to do this crucial work.

The government is working with indigenous partners on long-term approaches to ongoing current gaps and to addressing housing challenges. In August 2021, the Assembly of First Nations and the Institute of Fiscal Studies and Democracy released a joint study that identified the need for housing in first nations communities at about 55,000 new units and 81,000 renovations on reserve. To close that gap by 2030, the government is committed to providing immediate and sustained funding for housing on first nations.

I'm working together with first nations partners to codevelop the national first nations housing and related infrastructure strategy. This plan was endorsed by the Assembly of First Nations chiefs in 2018, and I'm committed to working with the Assembly of First Nations toward the advancement and implementation of the strategy.

Through the implementation of this strategy, first nations access to sustainable housing will be increased in a way that meets their needs and priorities, respects regional and cultural differences and supports the transition to first nations care, control and management of housing, based on their capacity and their prioritization. Both organizations play complementary roles in addressing housing needs on reserves. While ISC handles funding directed towards capital infrastructure, loan guarantees, housing innovation and capacity building, CMHC focuses on social housing and renovations.

I'm also working with my cabinet colleagues to implement the Inuit Nunangat housing strategy and the Métis housing subaccord. I'm also working with the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, the Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion and the Minister of Northern Affairs on the codevelopment of a northern, urban and rural indigenous housing strategy.

The government has made a number of important investments to ameliorate the need for housing in indigenous communities and for indigenous peoples. Since 2016, and as of September 30, 2021, the government has supported the construction and repair of homes for first nations households and communities on reserve. This includes building 7,873 new homes and the repair of well over 15,000. The figures don't include the units that are funded through the national housing strategy and its programs.

In addition to new constructions and renovations, ISC is also acquiring and servicing 1,384 lots, of which 1,035 are complete and 349 are in progress.

In the 2021 budget, we announced new investments to improve infrastructure, including housing.

This additional funding will financially support first nations communities to build 800 new homes, renovate 2,000 housing units and ensure that 500 additional lots are being serviced. We know that these kinds of investments make a huge difference in the lives of families and individuals.

Mr. Chair, as I said in my opening remarks, this is a very important study that you will be conducting, and the work the government is doing with first nations and indigenous people is just a start. The need is great. You will hear that from witnesses, and there is much more to do, but this government is committed to making the investments to reach the 2030 goal and close the housing gap for indigenous peoples.

Meegwetch. Nakurmiik. Marsi. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Minister Hajdu.

I'll now pass the microphone to Minister Miller.

Minister Miller, you have five minutes.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations]

Thank you, Chair.

Kwe Kwe. Tansi. Unnusakkut. Good afternoon.

I want to acknowledge that I am on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people here today and coming to you from Ottawa. It's nice to see you in person again.

Thanks for this invitation on such an important issue.

Indigenous peoples in Canada face the worst housing outcomes in the country, as Minister Hajdu described.

We know that overcrowded, inadequate and expensive housing remains a key factor in the persistent physical health, mental health, and other social and economic challenges faced by indigenous communities.

In Inuit Nunangat alone, close to 52% of Inuit live in overcrowded homes. Tuberculosis and, more recently COVID‑19, are prominent among the impacts this may have on health.

The situation is unacceptable. We know that we have to work harder and quicker to close the gap and to support the partners in their work, so that we can be sure that everyone has access to a secure and healthy home.

For Inuit housing needs, we are working with, notably, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami, Inuit lands claims organizations and other federal departments to implement the codeveloped Inuit Nunangat housing strategy. The strategy sets out important joint work to address Inuit housing needs, and it is rooted in an approach to self-determination where Inuit play a direct role in the delivery of housing in Inuit Nunangat.

To support its implementation, we have committed $13.2 billion through, in particular, the national housing coinvestment fund.

Since 2016, we have committed $490 million over 12 years to support Inuit-led housing in Nunavik, Nunatsiavut and the Inuvialuit Region. Along with repairs to many existing units, these investments will result in close to 500 new units being constructed in these regions by the end of 2022. In budget 2021, we have invested $517.8 million in Inuit land claim organizations in order to support infrastructures in Inuit Nunangat.

In Nunavut specifically, we have already invested $331 million to help 2,962 households access safe and secure housing. We have also provided $25 million to the Government of Nunavut to support their immediate housing and infrastructure needs, as well as $10 million to create an estimated 24 new affordable homes in Nunavut since 2016.

As well, we established an intergovernmental task force to respond to the critical housing and infrastructure needs in Nunavut. We also continue to play an active role through codevelopment and implementation of other distinctions-based approaches to housing and infrastructure, including the Métis nation housing strategy, through the work at modern treaty and self-governing first nations tables as well.

To support Métis nation housing infrastructure, we committed, in budget 2018, $500 million over 10 years. With this funding, Métis partners built or bought 1,158 housing units, repaired or renovated 2,096 housing units, and provided annual rental supports and subsidies, importantly, for 7,584 housing units.

Since 2016, we have also committed $18 million for northern first nation and Métis communities in the Northwest Territories, as well as an additional $25 million for the Northwest Territories to support their immediate housing and infrastructure needs. We have also established a dedicated intergovernmental task force to respond to the critical housing and infrastructure needs in the Northwest Territories.

In Yukon, housing and infrastructure needs are determined by each self-governing Yukon first nation. Their efforts have resulted notably in the building of 90 units and 13 new developed lots, a water main project and energy efficiency upgrades to existing housing and community-based infrastructure.

We will continue to work with indigenous partners on the best ways to address the problem and we are directly supporting indigenous-led approaches in our desire to develop our policies jointly.

I thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee today to discuss this important work. I look forward to taking your questions.

Meegwetch. Nakummek. Marci. Thank you. Merci.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Minister Miller.

We will now turn to Patricia Roset-Zuppa, vice-president, policy development, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

Ms. Roset-Zuppa, you have five minutes.

[Patricia Roset-Zuppa, Vice-President, Policy Development, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation]

Thank you very much, and thank you for the invitation to contribute to this important study.

It is a pleasure to appear before this committee on behalf of Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

I'm joining you today from Ottawa on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people. I have gratitude for this land and respect and appreciation for its many generations of caretakers.

CMHC is Canada's national housing agency. We are guided by a bold aspiration that, by 2030, everyone in Canada will have a home that they can afford and that meets their needs—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Forgive me for interrupting you, Ms. Roset‑Zuppa.

Mr. Chair, the interpretation is not working.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Okay. We'll just pause here, and I'll pause the time. Let's see if we can sort this out.

I'm going to assume that we can resume.

I apologize, Ms. Roset-Zuppa. Please continue.

[Patricia Roset-Zuppa]

No problem.

CMHC is Canada's national housing agency. We are guided by a bold aspiration that, by 2030, everyone in Canada will have a home that they can afford and that meets their needs. We're doing this in part by delivering the national housing strategy, a multi-billion dollar plan grounded in a human-rights-based approach to housing.

To achieve the goal of the strategy, our corporate aspiration, and to support Canada's goal of reconciliation, we know that we must do more to address the diverse and pressing housing needs of indigenous peoples.

Canada has a severe shortage of housing supply and that disproportionately affects indigenous peoples. According to 2016 census data, the rate of core housing need among indigenous households is 18% compared with the national average of 12.7%. This data reflects crowding, the need for major repairs and unaffordable conditions.

Indigenous people are also overrepresented among the 35,000 people who experience homelessness each night in Canada. They are also more than twice as likely to experience hidden homelessness, especially in the north, compared to their non-indigenous counterparts. Indigenous housing needs are complex and they are urgent. They are most dire across the territories, where approximately one-third of the indigenous population lives in unacceptable housing.

There is much work to do with indigenous partners to resolve this. We must continue to build and expand on what is being done by and with the federal government. For example, first nations, Inuit and Métis nation organizations alongside Indigenous Services Canada and Crown-Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada recently codeveloped distinctions-based housing strategies for first nations, Inuit and Métis. CMHC is very proud to be an active partner in this work.

Still, the majority of indigenous households live in urban, rural and northern areas, and they also need access to safe, adequate and affordable housing.

That's why we were pleased to see that the mandate letter of the Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion includes the commitment to engage with indigenous partners and to codevelop an urban, rural and northern indigenous housing strategy. This strategy was one of the main recommendations of the previous HUMA committee's report, and we at CMHC are ready and fully committed to support this work.

In 2019, we also set up a new indigenous and northern housing solutions team to increase the uptake of our housing programs and help to navigate our funding options and application process. As a result, the number of indigenous housing projects committed to has increased exponentially and will continue to grow.

Take, for example, the rapid housing initiative created to address the urgent need for housing in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic. The program received strong interest from indigenous groups, and nearly 40% of all units created under the first round of this $2.5-billion program will benefit indigenous households.

I think one the most important changes at CMHC has been a major shift in our approach to indigenous housing. We're working with indigenous partners to make existing programs more accessible, to build stronger relationships and to support self-determination. This work is being led by our indigenous and northern housing solutions team. It is supported by our new vice-president of indigenous relations and will be guided by our reconciliation action plan.

First nations, Inuit and Métis people best understand the distinct housing needs of their people and communities. They are best placed to find solutions that work for them, and we are committed to helping them to succeed.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and the rest of the committee, for studying this important issue. I'd be happy to take any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Roset-Zuppa.

We'll now proceed with the first round of questions, beginning with the Conservatives.

Mr. Vidal, I believe you're speaking first. You have six minutes.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here again.

Minister Hajdu, again we're here on a Friday afternoon. I think we did this together not too long ago.

The study we're embarking on today as a committee obviously is in regard to the effects of housing shortages on indigenous peoples. Over the past several months, the communities of Black Lake, Fond du Lac and Pelican Narrows in my northern Saskatchewan riding have announced tuberculosis outbreaks.

Minister Hajdu, you talked a bit about that in your comments.

We're talking about dozens of outbreaks and over a hundred cases. That's nearly double what it was a few years ago, and much higher than it has been in over a decade. Rates of tuberculosis in Saskatchewan are continually above the national average, but northern Saskatchewan, where we make up 3.6% of the province's population, is responsible for half of the province's cases, according to a study from 2021 that looked at outbreaks of tuberculosis.

The recently released departmental results report from Indigenous Services Canada for the year 2020-21 admitted that “the development of [the] tuberculosis reduction action plan for First Nations was not completed” as planned. What's more concerning is that in the 2022-23 departmental plan for ISC, I don't see any mention being made of any measures to prevent these outbreaks.

I guess my questions are threefold. I'll throw all of them out right away for Minister Hajdu.

Why is it that in a developed country like Canada in 2022 we continue to face tuberculosis outbreaks? What can I tell my constituents in northern Saskatchewan about when they can expect the government to release its action plan, and will it include targets? Finally, will this plan include some actual measures to deal with the overcrowded, unhealthy housing in these communities?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much.

Through the chair, I'm happy to say that I was in Saskatchewan last week, I think, or the week before last; time takes on a new meaning in COVID. On the last trip I took, I was in Saskatchewan and I had a chance to meet with the FSIN and many other individual chiefs in the region. We talked a lot about housing. As a matter of fact, in my opening remarks, I reflected on the leaders who have spoken to me about housing and, as I was saying those words, I was reflecting on the conversations I had specifically in Saskatchewan.

As you know, budget 2021, for example, commits $6 billion for infrastructure, including shovel-ready infrastructure projects and operations and maintenance costs, along with many other investments in first nations health, including $5.5 billion, for example, to improve health outcomes through timely access and culturally appropriate medical care.

You point out that housing is a critical ingredient in defeating infectious diseases like tuberculosis, and I would agree. I'd also say that we have to work more quickly on supporting culturally appropriate medical care and access. Many of the first nations leaders I spoke to on that trip talked to me, quite eloquently, actually, about the exclusion they felt from appropriate medical care from the Government of Saskatchewan and spoke about the need for urgency in the codeveloped health legislation and in appropriate and culturally appropriate care that can be provided closer to home for people who are treating, in some cases, very difficult to treat illnesses like tuberculosis.

There's work on the housing front and on the social determinants of health, but also on the actual delivery of health care that, as you know, we deliver in partnership with provinces and territories.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you for that. I want to turn my attention to Minister Miller for a minute.

Minister, you and I have had a number of conversations about a project in northern Saskatchewan that we've been trying to have some success on. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. It involves the Meadow Lake Tribal Council and a company called One Sky Forest Products. The the idea behind this project was an opportunity to invest in a very successful project that was going to create all kinds of dividends for many first nations in northern Saskatchewan and allow them to participate in the solutions to the housing crisis we face in northern Saskatchewan.

As it turns out, this project didn't fit the normal kinds of operating procedures of the federal bureaucracy and, to put it bluntly, the lack of flexibility became the barrier to getting this project off the ground. I'm just curious to know if you could respond to this. How do we justify to these northern communities, when they want to be part of the solution, that we can't get these projects across the line to allow them to participate and be part of that solution?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Thank you, MP Vidal, for the question. I know that I've changed roles, but I've still been following this with my team.

Clearly, on whether the facts in this case point to your conclusion that there is a lack of flexibility and funding in the way we work, I don't want to necessarily talk to publicly, out of respect for the communities in question, but I think the conclusion is not inaccurate insofar as what we've heard time and time again from communities, which is that lack of flexibility in our programs really hampers, confuses and delays, particularly in housing. In this situation, when we're talking about tuberculosis on one hand or COVID on the other, it actually can have real impacts on people's health and well-being.

While I won't question the facts and the premise, or at least discuss them or ventilate them publicly, I do think the conclusion is not inaccurate in many things we do. It's part of the reason why, under my portfolio, under modern treaties and the grant basis on which monies are allocated, it's really that the federal government works, codevelops and then gets the heck out of the way.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Really quickly, then, would you agree, Minister, that we need to find opportunities for these communities to invest in projects where they can be part of the solution rather than rely strictly on government programs?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Again, it depends on what issue we're really tackling. Whether it's an issue of inequity or it's really the underfunding by the federal government or other institutions that's created that, there's one approach. Then there's economic development, which is very much the case in question that you were championing. That's another approach that we need to take.

It's multi-faceted and goes across a number of departments, but yes, I do agree with you on the principles.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Vidal.

We'll now go to Mr. Weiler from the Liberal Party.

Mr. Weiler, you have six minutes.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank our ministers and officials for joining us for today's really important meeting on a study that's very much top of mind.

My first question is for you, Ms. Roset-Zuppa. It was a very special moment last week when I had the opportunity to announce, in partnership with the Squamish Nation, 80 units of new affordable housing that will be built within the next year for the benefit of the Squamish Nation. I was hoping you could talk a little bit more about this project and other programs within the national housing strategy that are supporting the creation of new, permanent affordable housing for indigenous peoples.

[Patricia Roset-Zuppa]

Thank you very much for that question.

I think you might be referring to a project done under the rapid housing initiative. The rapid housing initiative, which I would say is a very important and successful program, was introduced specifically as a COVID response because of the incredible needs that really intensified, especially during COVID, among those households that were already facing deep housing needs.

Under the rapid housing initiative, there were two rounds of funding for a total of $2.5 billion. What made this program a bit different from others was that it was 100% contribution funding for 100% of the capital dollars. There was a real urgency behind it. Units were meant to be provided and realized within fairly short order, including through modular housing, for example, as well as other building techniques. Really, it was for proponents to be able to apply and for us to get funding out the door as quickly as possible, but also acknowledging some flexibilities in northern indigenous communities, where we know that housing would take a bit more time to get out the door.

Certainly, we've seen great success. About 40% of the units under the rapid housing initiative have been committed to indigenous projects.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

That's great. As part of your opening testimony, you mentioned the creation of a new committee to help indigenous people with accessing some of CMHC's funding. Maybe you could speak a little bit more about how that committee operates, if it's reaching out directly to first nations or if you're waiting to be contacted to be able to assist in that regard.

[Patricia Roset-Zuppa]

I was talking about an internal team within CMHC for indigenous and northern housing solutions.

Mr. Chair, may I bring in my colleague here to speak to that? He's directly delivering this and working with indigenous partners.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

You may if Mr. Weiler agrees.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Absolutely.

[Patricia Roset-Zuppa]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ben.

[Benjamin Williams, Director, Indigenous and the North Housing Solutions, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation]

Thank you.

Patricia was talking about some of the structure changes we made back in 2019 in order to be, honestly, more flexible and more agile and responsive to indigenous housing needs. Through that, we created a dedicated team for indigenous clients. The team is divided into roughly two groups. One works directly with first nations communities across the country for us to be able to better understand housing needs and actually respond to them. A second group processes and prioritizes applications.

That way, we are getting better results, quite frankly, through the national housing strategy focused on indigenous households.