Evidence of meeting #82 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-53.
A video is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Ben Carr Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB
May I suggest that we extend the 15 minutes to our current witnesses to conclude the panel?
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Vidal Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Can we give them a second round of questions?
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
We can. We have the resources to, if we want to do that.
We're trying to be as respectful.... I know you've travelled a long way. You have important things to say. Many of our members have been invited to a number of things this evening as well, and that's always the challenge we have.
I'm here to make sure that the will of the committee is met.
5 p.m.
NDP
Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU
[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]
Yes. I would like to see them continue, because I still have some questions for them.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
Okay. Let's go into our second round, then. The second round is five minutes for the Conservatives, five minutes for the Liberals, two and a half minutes for the Bloc and two and a half minutes for the NDP. Let's do that.
We'll go over to Mr. Schmale. You have five minutes.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses for this testimony.
What we can start with is the membership in Ontario that you have spoken about many times during your time here. Could we not use traditional hunting grounds or trade paths as another way to determine membership, rather than just saying it's anything from the Red River west?
5:05 p.m.
Minister of Housing, Manitoba Métis Federation
This is something I have been speaking on for the last five years at schools, universities and private institutions.
There is a concept in indigenous politics called nationhood, which is central. Nationhood is not about blood. It's not about the mixture. I am not Métis because I am mixed. I am Métis because I have ancestors who were Métis and because there was an ethnogenesis of our people and nation. We have markers that show us to be a nation and a people—things like language and kinship, which are so important. If you have a Métis person living in Winnipeg and one living in Edmonton, Yellowknife, Lac La Biche or anywhere in the homeland, it's guaranteed that we are related. That cannot be said for any of those new communities in Ontario, which materialized all of a sudden in 2017.
We have other markers that identify us—cultural markers. We have clothing. If you look at both of our vests today, you will see a very distinctive type of beadwork. It is Red River Métis beadwork. It belongs to.... The Red River Métis is not Manitoba. I want to make that clear. The Red River Métis is the same as the historic Métis Nation. Our flag was flown at Red River. It was not flown at Sault Ste. Marie. The Red River cart and the Red River jig, as I said, are identifiers. It's about music, dance, food and culture.
Political action is also one of the primary things that political scientists point to. We can go all the way back to what is known as the Battle of Seven Oaks—or what we call the Victory of the Frog Plain—in the 19th century, through to President Louis Riel and the Red River and North-West...and into the 20th century, as well. That was political action, where we came together to assert our rights for how we live, and for our economies and land.
These are things that make a nation and a people. These things are absent when you look at those communities. They just recreated them using circular logic in Ontario, so it's not the same thing.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
I'm sorry. I have limited time.
Would amendments that give us parliamentary approval for a treaty be something that could help ease some of your concerns?
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Okay.
Rather than eliminating MNO from Bill C-53.... You mentioned earlier that no parliamentary approval.... I agree that's a concern. Only cabinet has the approval of a treaty, which, among most parliamentarians, is raising some eyebrows.
However, would having that parliamentary approval be something that could ease some of your concerns, while keeping MNO in?
5:05 p.m.
Minister of Housing, Manitoba Métis Federation
No, because MNO are not Métis. You would be treatying with people who aren't us—who aren't Métis. You would be signing agreements with them for section 35 rights to which they have no right.
That one is a non-starter.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON
Would you not agree, though, that MNO has been using Powley and others as road maps to lock down their membership?
Go ahead, Mr. Benoit.
5:05 p.m.
Chief of Staff, Senior Advisor, Manitoba Métis Federation
Yes. They're not just using Powley. If you go to their agreement, which is mentioned in the preamble of this legislation.... They have two quotes in there. Those quotes are directly out of MMF v. Canada in 2013. They're cloaking themselves in our court decisions, in addition to our culture, battles, symbols and leadership.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John Aldag
We're unfortunately out of time on this one, so I'm going to have to go over to Mr. Battiste for his five minutes.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
Thank you for that.
You made some very strong comments at the opening about identity theft.
Is it your opinion that the only Métis who are recognized in Canada are those belonging to the Red River and those who have expanded out?
5:10 p.m.
Minister of Housing, Manitoba Métis Federation
In the history of the world, colonialism happened—
5:10 p.m.
Minister of Housing, Manitoba Métis Federation
Absolutely. Colonialism happened everywhere. Nowhere else in the world was there an ethnogenesis of a people like the historic Métis Nation that happened in western Canada and northwestern North America, so I would say no.
Are there folks who had mixed marriages who have part European and part first nations ancestry? Absolutely. Did that result in an ethnogenesis of a nation? No, it did not. If we're talking about a nation, then yes, there is only one historic Métis Nation.
Now, MNO likes to use the word “communities” because Powley used the word “community”. To me, that's still problematic. A community is not a nation. There could be friends, neighbours and people who live together and work together, but where are those markers I talked about, the language, the culture, the food, the dance, the music, the symbols and the heroes? Louis Riel is not their hero; he's our hero.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
Also, in your introduction, you said that the Métis homelands extend from Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. You also said the Northwest Territories, and I quote, “a bit into Ontario”.
Can you tell me how much “a bit into Ontario” is in terms of the MMF's definition of how far the Métis extend?