Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[William Goodon]

Yes. It's not just the MMF. There was a resolution that was passed in 2018 by the Métis National Council general assembly. It's still on the books to this day. It has not been repealed.

If you look at the book by Jean Teillet, she talks about the amalgamation of the two fur trade companies, the North West Company and the Hudson's Bay Company in 1821. In 1821, that effectively closed off the portage at Rat Portage in northwest Ontario. There was no more movement; all the movement went around into the United States. Any connection that may have been there—there was only a generation or two of Métis at that time—was closed. There was no movement between those other communities and the nation. That's historic. It's in Ms. Teillet's book. I think it's quite proper.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you.

Can you share that resolution with this committee so we can have a better understanding of what was accepted by MNC's overall map of the Métis federation?

[William Goodon]

Yes.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I have a tough last question.

Under the Indian Act, which I'm a part of as a status Indian, I have a cut-off clause. I can pass on my status as an Indian only two generations, to my child if I marry outside of the Indian Act.... If my child chooses to marry and have kids outside of the Indian Act, we have a second generation cut-off.

To what extent does the person of Métis ancestry go?

[William Goodon]

Fortunately, we are not involved in and do not participate in the Indian Act. You heard the chief's leadership last week saying that they want to be able to determine their own citizenship, and they should. It should not be a colonial structure that determines who their citizens are, who their people are. It should never have been that way.

Canada has ignored us for 150 years. In some ways, that's been a blessing, because we didn't have to be subject to that kind of meddling.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Is there no ancestral cut-off for the Métis of MMF at all?

[William Goodon]

Again, being Métis is not about blood; it's not about blood quantum. It's being part of a nation and being part of the culture. Being able to participate in events, dancing the jig or playing the fiddle.... It's not about blood quantum. It never will be under our current leadership.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

How do you determine the ancestral part of the Powley test?

[William Goodon]

We don't have the Powley test. We have our own definition, which happened in 2002 before Powley, because we knew Powley was going to be problematic. Under UNDRIP, we have the right to self-determination. Even the Supreme Court of Canada isn't going to tell us who our citizens are.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Can you send that to our committee as well, in terms of whatever motion you have on that?

[William Goodon]

Are you talking about the 2002 definition?

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Yes.

[William Goodon]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Next we will go to Mr. Garon, who will have two and half minutes.

We have this one and Ms. Idlout's. Time goes very quickly.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll start by thanking today's witnesses for their testimony.

Mr. Benoit, the Conservatives have already raised this issue, and I know you're not in favour of Bill C‑53. I'm curious about what kind of amendments could be made that would make it acceptable to you. As I understand it, your position isn't necessarily irreconcilable, but you feel there's still a lot of work to do.

I'd really like you to elaborate on that.

[Al Benoit]

Yes. We'll send you our recommendations, but I think what's really important is that there needs to be a treaty attached to the legislation. There needs to be a way for members of Parliament to know what they're voting on when they do vote for the legislation and it gets royal assent.

So far today, we've talked about land. We've talked about the duty to consult. It has to be brought to Parliament for consideration so that the treaties aren't written on blank sheets of paper. You're not giving blank sheets of paper to them to write on. As well, clause 5 has to be completely rewritten to prevent an end run around Parliament. I know that my minister has brought up MNO possibly being severed.

What's really important...and it always seems to go back to Powley. People always talk about Powley. Powley just talked about what was happening around Sault Ste. Marie and its environs. Now it's blown up to be something that's for all of Ontario. What Powley did was create principles for membership, for citizenship, for who had rights and what communities had rights. Currently, it's focused only on Sault Ste. Marie.

In Manitoba, for the Red River Métis community, we have the Goodon decision. The gentleman sitting here went to court. What you have to realize is that a lot of things just need to be clarified. When we talk about Powley, we can't allow Powley to make things smoky and misty and vague. If you don't see something written in the legislation, don't trust that it will be there. Don't say that it points to one thing or another, because it's completely blank.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're at the end of the time, unfortunately.

Ms. Idlout, we'll go to you now for your two and a half minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to ask the MMF a question. You said that you are concerned about identity theft, about those who claim to be Métis. If their Métis children or descendants needed support in the future, who would support them? If the Métis Nation of Ontario were not there, who would support them?

[William Goodon]

Well, as I said before, the huge, vast majority of the membership of MNO is not Métis. If they're not Métis, those children are not Métis. There's not a need for them to be supported by....

They can be supported as Canadians, as Ontarians. There's no doubt about that.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you for that. I understand your response.

What evidence do you have that the Métis of the Métis Nation of Ontario are not Métis?

[William Goodon]

I think it's everything that I said before. There are no kinship connections. There is no political action that puts us together. There is no common language.

“Métis” is not a word like “Indian” or “first nations”, where there are all kinds of different groups within that. Métis is a nation. It's one historic nation. All these markers that make us who we are, a distinct indigenous nation, are not present in Ontario in these new communities.

I might add that the problem is maybe not for me to try to prove a negative. The proof is that the research is absolutely sloppy. I was just given a report today by a couple of esteemed academics, Dr. Celeste Pedri-Spade and Darryl Leroux, who did a research paper on the Sault Ste. Marie Métis community. That's absolutely something that we can send to you as well, along with some of the other work that Dr. Leroux and others have done with respect to some of the other so-called Métis communities in Ontario.

We will make sure those are available to the committee as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That takes us to the end of that round of questioning.

With that, I need to conclude this panel.

Thank you to all our witnesses, Dr. Coates, Mr. Benoit and Mr. Goodon, for joining us here today. As we said, we're allowed to take additional written briefs, so based on the conversation today, anything you'd like to send us would be welcomed, limited to 10 pages. We have received lots of material, but anything further that you feel would help us sort through this legislation would be very much appreciated, and that can be directed to our clerk.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I have been asked for the map as well, if you could send that to us.

Folks, we're going to suspend now while we bring in the next panel. We'll be starting up as soon as we get our sound checks done and everybody has settled comfortably.

For now, we're suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We are ready to go. We have our second panel in place. For the second panel, we have three witnesses.

First of all, we have with us in the room elder Angie Crerar, from the Métis Nation of Alberta. Welcome.

We have two witnesses online. We have Autumn Laing-LaRose, president of the Provincial Métis Youth Council and Minister of Youth. We also have Jason Madden, barrister and solicitor.

I would like to welcome each of you joining us.

We're going to start off with our guest in the room. She has with her one of her eight daughters, I was told, who is going to be helping out, but any questions should be directed to Mrs. Crerar.

Whenever you're ready, the floor is yours. Please tell us your story.