Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry, Minister; we need to pause for just a second. The interpreters are having a problem. If you could slide the mic slightly closer to you and raise it up, that should help a bit.

That's perfect. I'm sorry for the interruption. Please carry on.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you.

I want to highlight article 4 of the UN declaration. It says:

Indigenous peoples, in exercising their right to self-determination, have the right to autonomy or self-government in matters relating to their internal and local affairs, as well as ways and means for financing their autonomous functions.

Essentially, we're talking about an internal structure. Bill C-53 recognizes the three organizations, the Métis Nation of Ontario, Métis Nation— Saskatchewan and Métis Nation of Alberta, as self-governing authorities.

As a result, it is my considered opinion that—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I'm sorry, Minister, but I have to interrupt you to ask a second question and link the two.

Are you telling me that article 4 would take precedence over article 19? You're placing the two articles in opposition. You mention article 4 and say that we're only talking about governance. This leads me to my second question.

Mr. Justin Roy came to testify this week on behalf of the Kebaowek Nation. For him, as for several other witnesses, we're not just talking about governance mechanisms here. You said earlier that treaties wouldn't have anything to do with territory and resources. For these witnesses, however, this goes against their rights and titles, and they have concerns about this. Every nation has the right to have its own governance mechanism and to become a government, but when you're a government, you can negotiate treaties, and treaties affect their rights. That's what they told us.

What would you say to Mr. Justin Roy? Is he right in saying that at some point this could affect the rights and titles of the Kebaowek community? What about those of other first nations on their own territory in Quebec? Are you telling us that there's no possibility of this affecting their rights and titles?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Marilène.

Look, there is no impact on other indigenous peoples' section 35 rights with Bill C-53. If it comes to a stage—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Excuse me for interrupting again, but I'd like to clarify my question.

You're talking about Bill C‑ 53. I'm talking about what this bill—which will not be applied in a vacuum—could lead to. It could lead to something else.

My question is very simple. Is there a possibility of this happening, or no possibility at all? I'm not saying it could happen the very next day, but is it possible? So you can answer me yes or no, depending on whether there is a possibility or not.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

As it is, there are no implications on other section 35 rights. If and when we get to a point of a treaty that is negotiated by the respective governments, and if there are implications on other nations or competing claims that are not contemplated here, then there is an absolute duty to consult, and—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

You say it's not being considered, but that means it's possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time now.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

As it is, no, it's not contemplated in the legislation.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

So, it's possible. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're going to move to Ms. Idlout, who is next, for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik, Iksivautaq.

Thank you, Chairperson.

Thank you to the minister and his officials for appearing before us today.

This is a very serious bill. We've heard testimony from first nations and Métis. I'm not sure if you've been paying attention to some of what's been shared. Have you paid attention to any of what's been shared during this study?

I see you are signalling yes.

Would you agree, then, that this Liberal government has played a role in dividing first nations, Métis and Inuit against each other by introducing this bill in the way that this government did?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you for the question.

This bill was co-developed by the Métis nations of Ontario, Saskatchewan and Alberta. It comes in the spirit of reconciliation. It's something we've been working on for many years. Essentially, it recognizes the governing structures of these three communities.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'm asking you about what this Liberal government has done to first nations, Métis and Inuit in introducing it in the way that it did.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

There are a lot of issues where governments in the past—and I would admit, even our government—have reinforced colonialism. In this particular case, I don't believe that is so.

I believe this is moving forward in the spirit of reconciliation with the sole objective of ensuring that an existing government structure is codified into law. That is what we're doing. It is in no way impacting the other distinctions-based groups that we have here.

I can assure you, Lori—I think I can call you Lori, if that's okay—that is not the intention. The intention is to ensure that we recognize in legislation what has been in practice for many decades.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

We have heard from the Metis Settlements General Council in Alberta, who have their own government. Have you consulted with them in preparation for Bill C-53?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I met with them in my recent visit to Alberta—not with all of the settlements, but I did meet with the major ones. Essentially, the recognition that is happening with Bill C-53 is not for all Métis organizations. For example, the Manitoba Métis Federation is not part of Bill C-53. The ones subject to this bill are the Métis nations of Ontario, Saskatchewan and Alberta.

There are some groups that are going through a process of recognition as section 35 rights holders. At some point, if they choose to organize, we will support them once a recognition is there. Right now, it is these three that are subject to Bill C-53.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Can you confirm, then, that the rights of the Métis settlements in Alberta will not be impacted, that they will indeed continue to be able to work towards self-government? That's what they have been working towards for decades, I'm told.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Look, I met with them. I think they're doing some remarkable work in their communities, and this bill does not impact their section 35 rights, once conferred.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Okay.

In Bill C-53, there are three provisions. The first one is in number two of the preamble. The second part is in paragraph 4(b). The third part is in clause 8, where these provisions specifically talk about self-government, saying that the Métis that have been selected to be recognized to have self-governing rights are “authorized”.

In what way have you determined that these three—the MNO, the MNA and the MN-S—are the ones that are the authorized Métis governments whose rights should be respected?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Just to clarify, “authorized” does not mean “sole”. In terms of all three, they were the three existing governments that have been doing an enormous amount of work within their areas. They have a defined membership and they have been working and co-developing this legislation with us. We're here essentially because of the work they've done, and at this point—

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'm sorry to interrupt you.

In what ways have you determined that these three are the authorized self-governing nations as opposed to, for example, the Metis Settlements General Council in Alberta?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

The difference is.... I'm going to ask Martin to add and to maybe answer this question, if that's okay.

[Martin Reiher, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would say at the outset that before entering into a treaty with any indigenous group, we look at the history and all the environment, including the case law—