Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 22nd, 2022

[Margaret Pfoh]

No.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

In your personal opinion, is the CMHC flexible at all to new ideas such as a new funding stream for a direct indigenous housing program for urban...?

[Margaret Pfoh]

I believe they say that they are. Romy Bowers and Holly Cooper have certainly said all the right things. I think the proof will be in the budget. It's maybe beyond the CMHC, and about whether or not the federal government will make the investment. CMHC is saying the right things—they will co-create it with indigenous leaders—but as I said, the proof will be in the pudding when we see the budget.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

If I heard you correctly, you said that although new money is always welcome, and it's always a good thing, part of the problem is that the current funding isn't doing what it's supposed to do. Did I hear that correctly?

[Margaret Pfoh]

You heard it correctly.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Oh, I did hear it correctly.

[Margaret Pfoh]

Yes. What you heard from Mayor Bell is the same thing that indigenous housing providers across this country are challenged with. Access to those programs is cumbersome. The rollout is time-consuming. Some people were accepted three years ago and they have yet to see a groundbreaking. There's a multitude of reasons for that.

They're aware of this. I'm not saying anything to you that we haven't had a conversation about directly with Romy Bowers or directly with Minister Hussen. I've actually been tasked on a number of interviews and review panels with commentary. The reality is that I think this government is boxing themselves in.

This is not to be overly critical, but there is a need for governments to focus on reconciliation through direct work with first nations, Inuit and Métis leadership, but they have 100% excluded the urban in those conversations. You've just heard, through all of the witnesses, that there are capacity issues. So if this government were to say that we have....

I mean, we've asked my government here in B.C. for $15 billion over the next 10 years, if you look at my strategy, and that's what we need in British Columbia alone for urban indigenous people. I can't even imagine what the entire country is going to need.

I think what really needs to happen is this: You're going to need to create that national centre, sooner rather than later, led by indigenous leaders for indigenous communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Pfoh and Mr. Schmale.

Mr. Badawey, that went over four minutes, so I'll give you four minutes.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Actually, Mr. Schmale brought up some great points. There's a whole different discussion we can get into with respect to long-term financing, debentures, etc., which can actually attach to what Ms. Pfoh was talking about with respect to the money that's needed.

I do want to preface my comments to all of you by saying, first of all, thank you for being here this afternoon. At the last session of Parliament, HUMA, the human resources committee, tabled a report recommending the creation of an urban, rural and northern housing strategy. With this, after the last election, our government appointed obviously our first ever Minister of Housing. As well, part of his mandate letter in December gave him a mandate to co-develop and implement a dedicated urban, rural and northern housing strategy with now Minister of Indigenous Services Canada, Minister Hajdu.

That's what we're working on now. We're working on co-developing the strategy for indigenous communities both on and off reserve. I want to open up the discussion, because it is timely—before the budget, and with them working on that strategy—and have some thoughts from all of you with respect to your input.

By the way, we're not going to try to fit this into four minutes. I will open up my door and my phone line for further discussion on this, as the parliamentary secretary for ISC.

Starting with the mayor, I'd like to hear some quick thoughts on that strategy as well as on the 41% of indigenous housing we're looking at moving forward with in the rapid housing initiative.

Did we lose Mayor Bell?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

We're not hearing you, Mayor Bell.

[Kenny Bell]

I'm sorry about that. There are two mute buttons. The sound broke up at the very last second there. All I heard was something about the national housing strategy.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

If I may, Mr. Mayor, I was referring to the housing strategy that both Minister Hajdu and Minister Hussen are working on right now with respect to the urban, rural and northern housing strategy. Second to that is the 41% of all units created under the first two rounds of the rapid housing initiative now going toward indigenous peoples.

What are some of your thoughts on how we're going to move forward and move down the road with those two initiatives?

[Kenny Bell]

Thank you again.

The city was lucky enough to receive $5 million from rapid housing direct to city funding. We've turned that into $10.7 million to make only 18 units, and that is because of the cost of building. The CMHC and Minister Hussen worked with us very closely to make sure we could qualify for these things and helped us through the process. This is something that I think most cities in Canada could do.

It was hard for us. We made a special program with the Government of Canada, the Government of Nunavut, Inuit organizations and the city to get this project done, so I think that all of these strategies are being worked on.

I think we need to re-examine exactly what that means. Again, just like everyone said—Harper and Pfoh—we need indigenous-led everything. Everything needs to be indigenous-led when you're talking about indigenous housing. They need to make sure they talk with all of the indigenous communities they can to get that done.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mayor Bell.

Ms. Pfoh.

[Margaret Pfoh]

Nothing about us without us is essentially where Mr. Bell is going with those sentiments. It's absolutely right.

To hit your two points, I'm going to say that the RHI, 41% to indigenous...from our experience here in British Columbia, would mean that it's targeting on nation, traditional, distinctions-based focus groups. Not a single urban, rural and northern submission was approved, despite the fact that the Province of B.C. stepped in to offer more money than the federal government was planning to invest in RHI in British Columbia in ongoing subsidies to support those programs. The RHI has not been a very great success for our urban communities here in British Columbia.

There's another reason for that. For urban, rural and northern communities, especially in the more rural and northern communities where infrastructure is a challenge, the target population of RHI requires funding for wraparound supports that cost more money than the bricks and mortar of a rapid housing unit.

Those are two challenges with the RHI.

With regard to the URN strategy, again, we've seen nothing. When we consulted with CMHC just a week ago, my concern was the notion that the money that would be allocated in budget 2022.... What would we do in our engagement sessions?

You yourselves just referenced a HUMA standing committee that was evidenced almost two years ago. The recommendations are there. The path has been laid. We don't need any more engagement. We need an investment. I'm really, really hoping that the budget isn't about further engagement but is about investment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Pfoh. Thank you, Mr. Badawey.

Mrs. Gill, I can give you two minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank Ms. Pfoh for her candour earlier. I think we have to say the things we don't like, in order to be agents of change.

Ms. Pfoh, you said that the breaking point had been reached. We know the solutions. We don't need to consult any more people, as you just said. I was going to ask the question, because you hadn't said it yet. Funding is decreasing and not keeping up with the skyrocketing costs. Housing is deteriorating.

Assuming there is even a will on the part of the government, why can't the situation be resolved? At the same time, these are other avenues for the committee, because in theory, we have everything we need to resolve the situation.

My question is for each of the witnesses. Thank you.

[Margaret Pfoh]

The path is laid. The numbers have been provided in the FIBI submission, both to the HUMA committee and to the national housing council round tables, with specific unit asks and specific dollar asks.

I think perhaps the biggest missing link is that whole capacity piece: the need to invest in recruitment and retention, in infrastructure, and the need to invest in capacity training and education.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Ms. Harper, would you like to comment?

[Roxanne Harper]

Yes, I would.

I think that we have to take into consideration—and I can only represent the first nation lens here—that we are an incredibly fast-growing population with a lot of diversity across the country. In addition to the funding crisis that we're facing, we continue to have a lack of human resources and an incredibly overburdened administration. We really have to be honest about the challenges that are facing first nations and continue to seek out solutions together.

Again, I have to urge you—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Chair, is it possible to ask the people in the room to be quiet? I can't hear what the witnesses are saying.

[Roxanne Harper]

—[Inaudible—Editor aboriginal original lens, Inuit lens, on reserve and off reserve. It's really a complex photo when we look across the country.

Wela'lin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much.

I will just remind everyone not to be speaking in the committee room so that all of the members can hear what the witnesses have to say.

With that, Ms. Idlout, I can give you two minutes. You will be the last person to question.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut , interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

I will ask everyone the question.

Minister Hajdu said that indigenous housing is dependent on the indigenous capacity. What are the capacity development needs that should be a priority and need to be addressed?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Ms. Idlout, is that for anybody in particular?