Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 22nd, 2022

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Building on that, obviously AHMA is based in B.C., in a unique context in B.C., with the actions of the provincial government.

You answered this a bit in your question before, but do you see a need for other provincial AHMAs to be established across the country, or do you see that it would be better suited to have a national organization to represent indigenous housing providers off reserve?

[Margaret Pfoh]

I think it's going to end up being two steps. I think we're going to need a national body that doesn't have to be educated in all of the 150-plus years of colonial impacts and traumas that have happened to our communities. It's going to have to be a national centre that understands the urban challenges you've heard about from my brothers and sisters before me here, especially in the north.

I've travelled this country—I've travelled this world— at the request of indigenous communities and organizations asking for AHMAs in their own provinces. I was approached by Nova Scotia, which has a couple of urban indigenous organizations that are wanting to try to build capacity.

As you heard from Mr. Bell, you could throw $10 million at them today, and they probably couldn't respond because they're sitting there with no staffing resources and no infrastructure to actually execute the delivery.

We're going to need to see both. We're going to need to see a national centre that understands urban indigenous issues, and we're going to need to see that national centre build capacity out in provinces that don't already have it. Ontario has it; Saskatchewan has it; B.C. has it, but there aren't very many others.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

As one of your recommendations, you noted that many vulnerable indigenous households face barriers such as a lack of awareness for applying for housing, complexity with applications, literacy challenges and more.

I'm wondering if you have any specific recommendations on how the Government of Canada could help address those barriers.

[Margaret Pfoh]

Well, I think it lies in the “for indigenous, by indigenous” propositions that have been brought to the table. We need to have indigenous-led organizations where there are indigenous targeted populations to break down those barriers and facilitate that uptake.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much, Mr. Weiler.

We're now going to Madam Gill.

Mrs. Gill, you have six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to once again thank the witnesses, Ms. Pfoh, Ms. Harper, Ms. Bennett and Mr. Bell, for their testimony.

I don't want to be a prophet of doom, but I have a question. I realized that it often came to mind, but I never expressed it. It's about what will happen in the medium or long term. We've already talked about all the housing problems first nations have. Even if there were funding, it wouldn't be enough. As Ms. Pfoh said, we need something else.

What worries me is the breaking point. There's a housing deficit. At the same time, there are very young populations. I often talk about demographics. I see it in my riding, where there are a lot of children. We also see that housing built 40 or 50 years ago needs more than love. Some of it is substandard. I'm wondering if it's been determined where the breaking point would be. We already consider ourselves to be in a crisis situation, but when will it simply collapse?

This worries me, because Ms. Pfoh, like Mr. Bell, told us that recommendations had already been made, that we had ideas and that we knew what needed to be done, but that it was taking a long time. Of course, the situation may be different from one community to another, but when do you think an even more serious crisis could happen? I don't want that, but I think it's inevitable.

Do you have any idea what this might mean for communities in the medium and long term?

My question is for all the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Ms. Pfoh, perhaps you could start that off.

[Margaret Pfoh]

I opened by indicating that I was going to say some things that would make people uncomfortable, but the reality is that in the immediate term, we've already reached that breaking point. Just look at the news reports that you hear and see every day across this country, here in British Columbia in particular, with regard to the opioid crisis, once again overrepresented by indigenous people. We have people literally dying on our doorsteps. My good friend at the Ontario Aboriginal Housing Services in Ottawa indicates to me that almost every week somebody dies if not on his doorstep then down the street from his doorstep. These are indigenous people who are seeking a sense of safety and belonging in the urban, rural and northern environments. The short-term crisis is that we've already reached that breaking point.

If we start looking at the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, over 200 times in that final report the notion of housing was mentioned. The ongoing inability of the federal government to make dedicated investments into urban, rural and northern housing programs will continue to see those numbers rise among the missing and murdered, among the opioid users, among the homeless. We heard this just in Smithers. Look at the Goodacre report just released here in B.C. about how another provincially funded program targeting primarily indigenous communities was run through a non-indigenous entity. There's no sense of safety. There's no sense of belonging. People don't feel as though they can actually execute effective change to save their lives, and they reference that place as a place to go and die.

Without immediate change, we are going to see those numbers continue to rise. We've already reached the breaking point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you.

Mayor Bell, do you want to comment?

[Kenny Bell]

Just quickly, I wholeheartedly agree with Ms. Pfoh. The breaking point has passed. I think we're probably 10 to 15 years past that breaking point here in Nunavut.

I've visited houses here in the city in which there are so many people living that people are living in furnace rooms, honestly, sleeping on the floor in a furnace room. This is not sustainable.

Most of our people in jail are indigenous. They can't even get away from each other if they need to. When there's family violence or family sexual assaults, or any of these things, they can't even get away. There's no place to go. The city is a little bit better than most communities because we have shelters, but our shelters are at capacity as well. Most communities in Nunavut do not have shelters, and this is even worse for them.

This is a serious issue and, at the end of the day, we need not only housing but also those supports to help people understand how to live in houses as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you.

Ms. Harper, would you like to comment?

[Roxanne Harper]

Yes, please.

I would say that we will never break. Today I represent my community, which is a Mi'kmaq nation that has lived under colonization for more than 500 years. I'll tell you that we will never break. That is exactly why, for first nations, we need organizations like the First Nations Housing Professionals Association, which gives our people a national voice and a national lens. Together, collectively, we look for solutions that empower our people. We create opportunities whereby first nations can reinvest in themselves and we continue to move forward.

There is no opportunity for us to even consider anything less than a successful outcome.

I hear Margaret asking for a national organization for the off-reserve voice and the urban native voice. We would champion you on that, and we would applaud any efforts that could be made.

The last comment I would like to suggest to people is that it's really, really difficult to take a national view on indigenous housing for on reserve or off reserve, urban native, Inuit, Métis and to bring us all together in a forum like this. One of my last recommendations to the federal government would be to consider having meetings like this with individual groups, which would allow for a more detailed analysis of what we're all dealing with.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Harper.

Thank you, Mrs. Gill.

We'll now go to Ms. Idlout.

You have six minutes, Ms. Idlout.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

First, I wish to thank you all for your reports, which are very helpful and informative.

I have a question for Mayor Bell.

Thank you for being here.

You talked about a study. If you could share that with the staff here, it would be very good.

Mayor, in the past you've talked about how infrastructure in Iqaluit impedes the progress of future developments. Iqaluit's housing action...2022-31 said, “The city is in crisis with respect to its infrastructure, as there is a lack of sufficient utilities...transportation infrastructure and overall capacity to support additional housing development.”

What role do you see the federal government having in coordinating a plan that resolves these issues simultaneously?

[Kenny Bell]

Thank you, MP Idlout.

Yes, we have a huge infrastructure deficit here in the city, and not only the city, but in Nunavut.

We're constantly in contact with the federal government about this. We've asked for $184 million to fix our water issue. Probably everybody here at this committee has heard about the Iqaluit water crisis this year, which has left us with no drinkable water for two months, and now we are not even using a treatment centre. We are just using a bypass.

Our infrastructure is from the Cold War when the U.S. military moved here.

Honestly, we need a rethink of the way we do business, especially on reserves in the territories. We are a territory of Canada, and the Government of Canada needs to treat us as a territory, or give us our independence.

It's funding, obviously, but not only funding; there are capacity issues. We need help with our capacity issues, and timelines. A lot of times they have requirements to apply within certain times, and we just can't do it. There's no possibility. We missed out on a lot of the rapid housing funding that was available this year. We did get some, thankfully, but we could have also received more had we had more time to be able to develop those units—that's one of the reasons—but we couldn't develop them within the time required.

We just need a rethink of the way we do business in remote and northern areas.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'll ask this question in English.

I was interested in having you as a witness because you're the mayor of the City of Iqaluit, and I know this might be a unique...for this study.

I'm wondering if you could describe for the committee how the city experiences challenges in allowing more housing to be available. Are you able to generate, have more land? You've mentioned that there is a huge land mass. What are the challenges you face as the mayor to increase space for houses to be built?

[Kenny Bell]

Of course, we have the largest land mass. We're on Baffin Island, which I know is one of the biggest islands in the world. We have no shortage of land, but whether it is developable is the question. It costs a lot of money to develop roads here, and piping has to be below permafrost, which, of course, now, because of climate change, is moving at an alarming rate, and it's not predictable anymore. All of these things add to costs. The studies, even just to put the pipes in the ground, are extremely expensive. One dig for a water main break here in the city costs anywhere between $50,000 and $100,000 to fix. That is specifically because of a lack of resources, a lack of companies that can do the work and a lack of our own staff who can do the work. These are all capacity issues.

It's really hard to build new properties. What we've been trying to do is redevelop old property and use what we have already, but our piping is very old. Our sewage piping is very old. Our water sewage is very old. It's all very old.

Without the $184 million we've asked the federal government to provide us for water infrastructure, we're really stuck right now. We're even at the point where we're asking developers to have time-release sewage tanks on their property, even though they have access to our infrastructure. We're that far behind right now.

Again, we need more money.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you.

Ms. Idlout, that's our time.

Colleagues, we have to be out by six o'clock, because our interpreters are required elsewhere, but we have time for a very shortened second round, so we'll proceed with that.

Mr. Schmale, are you there? I can't see.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I am.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Okay, very good.

I would like to give you three minutes.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I would love to take them.

Mayor Bell, I have a quick question regarding the housing funding, however it may be done.

Many municipalities, as you know, get the gas tax funding. It's given directly to municipalities, who then decide what they want to do with that funding. Not only that, they have the ability to look at what they're going to get anywhere from two, five or 10 years out, so you can plan and work as a council to meet certain goals.

Would something like that, where the funding is sent directly to municipalities, be even a fraction better than what you're dealing with now?

[Kenny Bell]

Absolutely.

I sit on FCM's board as well, and we've been pushing for a doubling if not tripling of the gas tax fund. I'm glad you call it the wrong name, because I always call it the wrong name. I'm not even sure what the new name of gas tax funding is, but I really appreciate that.

It does help us, especially here at the city. It gives us some long-term planning ability with the direct funds we know we're going to receive every year. It's a great addition to our funding, for sure.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

I guess it would also save staff time in terms of hiring consultants to try to apply and figure out what stream is doing what and what changes. I think it would be more efficient sending dollars that way, in my personal opinion.

[Kenny Bell]

Yes, I agree. The Government of Nunavut is responsible for all 25 communities, and this gas tax funding helps each community plan their own needs outside of what the government can provide. In our case, it really does help us a lot. There's also a finite number of things you can use that money for, which is understandable. We use it well, and we really appreciate it, and anytime it can be upped, doubled or tripled, we would really appreciate that, of course.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Mayor Bell.

Ms. Pfoh, I'll quickly turn to you. I think I have less than a minute left.

In terms of the CMHC, I noticed that you mentioned you're still waiting some six years out for the CMHC to adjust and even create a new funding stream to look at urban housing. Do you think the CMHC is achieving the goals set out for them even now to justify $48 million in executive bonuses?