Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 24th, 2025

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thanks to the witnesses for coming today.

This question is for Joseph Tsannie.

A CBC article on October 15 has the headline, “Prince Albert Grand Council inches closer to creating independent police force”. You're obviously familiar with the article. It shows that things aren't going really well in their current form if you're having to pursue this other police force. The article refers to David Sanderson, the public safety implementation adviser for the Prince Albert Grand Council. The article says, “Some common concerns with how communities are currently policed by RCMP included long response times, a lack of cultural understanding, and a lack of presence in the community. Sanderson said people also feel there's simply not enough boots on the ground.” He said, “There are not enough police officers in our communities. They're under-resourced right now.” The article went on to say, “Meanwhile, some people's fears for their safety are growing.”

Vice-Chief Tsannie, it's clear the job isn't getting done in the community. Do you think it's a good use of those limited officers there and resources to go after law-abiding firearms owners and their hunting rifles?

[Vice-Chief Joseph Tsannie]

In terms of hunting, where I come from, we're taught how to use firearms at a very young age. My son is 10 years old. I take him caribou hunting on the land.

In terms of the firearm situation and to use the understaffed police to go after those, I'm always open to any form of community safety, whatever form that may be, to make our community safe.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

The question was regarding if you're already lacking resources to deal with the criminals and crime that's in the community, do you think an additional task should be given to go after people like you who legally own your firearms and collect your firearms? Do you think that's a good use of resources?

[Vice-Chief Joseph Tsannie]

I think since they're not responding, put them to work. Until we have our own indigenous police force, our own governance system, and how that's all going to work.... They're not responding. They're not there already. Put them to work, if you can, to make our community safe.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Well, I hate that the one thing they're doing in the community is going after your firearms when you legally obtain them and own them.

My next question is for Mayor Herman.

We heard you say in your testimony that you've been down to five officers, and not necessarily officers who are even on duty in your community. You also said that criminal activity is happening in your community without consequences, and many times because of a lack of resources. I heard your frustration even when you said that if you have to take care of your own family, you're going to do that. That's a sad place to be when we have police forces that are supposed to protect us.

It's a similar question that I asked Vice-Chief Tsannie. Do you think it's a good use of limited police officers, who are having a tough time doing basic policing, to now have to go after law-abiding first nations and Inuit firearms owners who aren't the problem?

[Lyle Herman]

No, it's not. I don't believe it's a good idea. My family owns guns, but they're securely locked away and everything. Why should that affect them? We are obeying the law. We're using them for what they're intended. I believe they're right. Nobody should own handguns, actually. Why would you need to own them?

We had a shooting incident years ago, about a decade ago now, where an individual opened fire in a school. Where did that person get that gun? Who owned that gun? Was it even locked away? How did they obtain it? If we're looking at consequences, those who own the gun should have consequences for not locking it up correctly.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

You would agree that if the person got the firearm illegally and doesn't have a firearms licence, they shouldn't be able to own firearms. That's where the focus should be.

I have a follow-up question to that. Would you prefer that the resources go after criminals instead of going after your firearm and that particular group? I think the problem is the focus.

The last thing any community wants is.... We have already heard from many witnesses that basic crimes are going unaddressed in communities. Now they're going to get this task from the Minister of Public Safety saying that they now have to go after Inuit and first nations people who legally got their firearms and know how to use them, as Vice-Chief Joseph Tsannie said. Now those police officers who are already maxed out are going to have to go after your firearms.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

I'm sorry. That brings us to the end of the time. We're over the time.

We'll go to to Brendan Hanley for five minutes.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you very much to the three of you for being here and for your testimony.

Ms. North, one of the items in your opening remarks that struck me was your comment that if you feel safe in your community then there's less crime. There's a kind of a perception of feeling safe, as well as actually being safe.

I wonder if you can describe briefly what the elements are to be able to feel safe in a community.

[Sheila North]

That's right. I think part of it is indigenous people and first nations particularly that I know of seeing themselves in the forces and in the solutions, and hearing their solutions being utilized to address and tackle the crime and the injustices that they see in their nations. Yes, part of it is what these members are trying to point out about misguided tasks. I know what they're trying to do, but I think the biggest misguided task is not being able to fund the nations properly.

First nations are forced to use part of their funds every year to support the role of police officers and safety officers in their communities. Those are already limited funds, as you probably know. They're also forced to fund some of it and that's completely not fair. None of it is fair at the moment because this issue is causing people's loss of life, and loss of peace, safety and the feeling of safety. That can only come from more presence of officers themselves, their solutions and better-equipped communities to deal with the growing problem that you've heard about already.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Vice-Chief Tsannie, you really described the whole spectrum of, I would say, a holistic approach to community safety. I was really impressed with your remarks.

I'm curious as to what either motivated you or enabled you to get involved so young. You described getting involved at the age of 18 in leadership and community safety.

[Vice-Chief Joseph Tsannie]

I spoke earlier about opportunities for our young people in our northern communities. We are still dealing with TB outbreaks in our northern communities. Since COVID hit, we told people to stay indoors. There were 15 or 16 people in a three-bedroom home with one bathroom.

Our kids are looking for opportunities. We started a pilot training program to give those opportunities to our people. We got them an elder support pilot for mentorship support. We looked after their accommodations. If they wanted to go home to eat traditional food, we allowed for that.

The whole training of policing needs to accommodate our people, who come from isolated northern communities, to make them feel welcome, make sure they're not intimidated when they go there and make sure the supports are there to get our people into the law enforcement or the justice system in a good way.

It's about giving opportunities and changing the story. If we continue to stay status quo, we're not giving opportunities to our indigenous communities and things are just going to escalate to other things. It's about opening those doors.

Why not? It's been 152 years since the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have been working in our communities. Why haven't our first nations stepped forward and taken that opportunity and that responsibility into their own hands? Why not encourage our students to get into law enforcement?

It's about changing the story. If things are not getting better—if your yard is not being cleaned the way you want—then you do it. That's the opportunity we have.

We all want a safe community. We all want safe provinces. We all want a safe Canada.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I would like to squeeze in one more question.

You also mentioned opportunities for sports and recreation. What are you seeing in terms of those opportunities in the communities, and how can we help to increase those opportunities for sports and recreation?

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Give a 30-second answer, please.

[Vice-Chief Joseph Tsannie]

With regard to opportunities, school programs are very important—more funding for sports and recreation opportunities at the school level during the education opportunities. There is also transportation access. There's the high cost of transportation. Let's say you're sending a hockey team from one of our northern communities to a major centre down south. That's probably $1,500 per ticket. How can you send a hockey team when you don't have roads? What about training? If you go out, you can't visit your home because you can't afford to.

The high unemployment rate in our communities is tough for families. The high cost of living in the north—the food, the training, the gas, etc.... Those are all barriers that we need to find solutions for.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you very much for all of your testimony. It was very much appreciated.

I'm looking around to get consensus to adjourn the meeting.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

The meeting is adjourned.