Evidence of meeting #16 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Mandy Gull-Masty  Minister of Indigenous Services
Wilson  Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Hogan  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Wheeler  Principal, Office of the Auditor General

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

I'm going to call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 16 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We recognize that we meet on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 27, the committee is commencing its study of the 2025 reports of the Auditor General of Canada, “Follow-Up on Programs for First Nations”.

We're going to have two panels: first the minister and then the Auditor General. I just need a little time at the end to provide some instructions from the committee to the analysts and the clerk on what we heard and what we want them to work on over the holidays. About 10 to 15 minutes before the end, I'm going to suspend, and then we will go into the drafting instructions.

Without further ado, appearing today from 4:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m., we have the Honourable Mandy Gull-Masty, Minister of Indigenous Services. Welcome, Minister, we're glad to have you here. As well, from the Department of Indigenous Services, we have Gina Wilson, deputy minister; Candice St-Aubin, senior assistant deputy minister, health and social; Paula Hadden-Jokiel, assistant deputy minister, regional operations sector; and Jennifer Wheatley, assistant deputy minister, first nations and Inuit health branch.

We're all here, so that's great.

Minister, you're going to have five minutes, please.

4:35 p.m.

Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou Québec

Liberal

Mandy Gull-Masty LiberalMinister of Indigenous Services

Good afternoon, everyone. The day has been quite long.

[Witness spoke in Cree and provided the following translation:]

Hello, everyone. Thank you for inviting me.

[English]

Last time, I don't think translation was provided when I spoke in Cree.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for inviting me. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to come back.

I welcome the Auditor General's follow-up report on programs for first nations and Inuit, and along with that the feedback directly from the community that guides our ongoing effort and commitment to ensure we are continually striving to improve the delivery of services.

The Auditor General's message to us was direct—there is progress since the earlier audits, and there was an additional message that was very clear to us, but there are places where our progress must go faster, be clearer and be more accountable. That's what a follow-up is. It is a measure to ensure that you are seeking to follow the progress you're making. We also are looking to measure what has changed and to name what hasn't, to understand why, and also to focus on what our next steps are.

My department and I will soon present an action plan that will lay out the next steps we are going to undertake, shaped by what we've also heard from communities, which are a valuable part of this conversation. I carry this responsibility with care, and I'm looking forward to that work, which will be presented in spring 2026.

As a first nations woman, I can attest directly to the impact of services and the impact felt when proper services are not provided. I've also seen the difference when a community or service is well prepared. I know directly from personal history, living in a remote community, what it means when there is a nurse who delivers that service with care and compassion, and also what it means when that nurse is able to deliver it in your mother tongue. I know that listening to our leaders is a critical part of that, and being rooted in an approach that's based on culture is something that is very significant and necessary to ensure proper health care.

Let me share some of the work we've already done, beginning in health services.

Working with first nations partners, we've taken steps to bring care closer to home. I think this is absolutely imperative. This includes expanding eligible services to include paramedics, licensed practical nurses and nurse practitioners, and also improving the ways we hire and retain health workers in the communities that need them the most. We have also included the hiring of over 100 new frontline nurses, and those nurses are often working in remote and isolated communities. What does this mean? It means more consistent primary care, better after-hours support and, most importantly, fewer trips far away from family to receive that basic service.

We are improving dental care delivery, with 2.8 million dental claims provided for first nations and Inuit last year. That number represents real people who have accessed a broad range of dental services, from prevention to fillings, across Canada and across the span of their life.

We're also investing in first nations-led solutions. On September 12 of this year, at Whitecap Dakota nation, I had the opportunity to participate with the community and partners in turning the sod on the new construction of a virtual health centre, the first of its kind in Canada.

Supported by over $28 million in federal funding, this project is innovative, and it will be indigenous-led. It will connect more than 90 remote communities in Saskatchewan to health services provided in the community.

During COVID-19, the OAG reported that Indigenous Services Canada adapted quickly to providing personal protective equipment to indigenous communities and organizations when other sources were not available.

At Indigenous Services Canada, we also streamlined ways to bring nurses and paramedics in, especially responding to communities when they were at their most vulnerable, as they often had members with very complex health needs. We were able to provide that support during a critical period of time.

Since this audit, we have also improved the way we send assistance where it's needed most. We can now quickly send staff and supplies when the communities need them. This is a critical approach.

Today, at Indigenous Services Canada, we respond to all requests for personal protective equipment for health services in the communities.

Regarding emergency management, I think everybody here knows this was one of the most devastating wildfire seasons in history. I want to thank community leaders, elders, firefighters and those who fought on the front line to keep communities safe.

In the audit on emergency management in first nations communities, they asked for clarity before fire and flood seasons: agreements, role logistics, funding and timely support during and after events, with investment in prevention and mitigation. Since the 2022 audit, we have seen that Indigenous Services Canada has developed a comprehensive action plan and implemented targeted measures across all recommendations to strengthen preparedness, coordination and accountability.

The department remains on track to meet all of the associated timelines, including the development of new multilateral agreements in collaboration with first nations and provinces.

There are currently eight bilateral emergency management agreements and seven wildfire agreements in place. We are supporting over 300 emergency management coordination positions across the country.

We will continue to work with the communities, building on indigenous knowledge so we can protect lives, build community resilience and reduce the impact of emergencies.

Ensuring clean, safe drinking water for first nations is a top priority for this government, and for me personally. We are funding operations and maintenance for existing systems and supporting first nations in new infrastructure builds.

Since 2015, we've seen sustained progress. We've committed over $7 billion to support first nations for on-reserve water and waste-water infrastructure and operations and maintenance, including over $5 billion to support 1,545 water and waste-water projects that will benefit 595 communities serving approximately 481,000 people; 725 of these projects have been completed to date.

The results have been clear. We were able to lift 149 long-term drinking water advisories, providing access to clean water to 9,289 homes and 655 buildings and further preventing 310 short-term water advisories from becoming long-term problems.

Based on 2023-24 performance inspections, 97.5% of public water systems on reserve produce treated water that meets the prescribed standards in the guidelines for Canadian drinking water quality.

However, as the Auditor General also pointed out, there's still work left to do. In every community with a long-term drinking water advisory, there is a plan in place and there is work under way with the community to work towards lifting it. I'm committed to advancing this work while making sure that we are not only accelerating this process but also demonstrating progress.

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Thank you.

If we can get you to wrap up, we'll get to questions, and you'll be able to get them out.

Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

By spring, we intend to introduce legislation on clean drinking water. I'm very excited to see that come to the table.

We are also addressing that while there has been much work done—and a lot of information has been provided in these audits—there continues to be progress. Meeting communities in the places where they are is an important part of that progress. We are looking to press forward to work together. We understand that there is urgency, but we must also demonstrate respect and transparency for the families we serve.

Today, we do accept these findings. We know that they are a measure and a guideline. We recognize that there is work that remains, and we are committed to the path ahead. It's essential that our services are delivered in ways that honour culture, dignity, self-determination and progress for the community in the community.

Meegwetch.

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Meegwetch.

We're going to go to our first round of questions. For six minutes, we have MP Morin, please.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Billy Morin Conservative Edmonton Northwest, AB

Thank you, Minister, for sharing your time with us today.

I want to acknowledge you again as the first indigenous ISC minister. I can only try to understand the difficulties of being indigenous and trying to overcome the challenges of the ministry itself. That said, we still have a challenge before us, and we have much work to do.

Reflecting on these reports, Minister, you acknowledge some level of progress, but according to the reports, ISC budgets have increased 84%, yet over half of these recommendations still go unanswered.

You just mentioned water, which is one of the reports we're talking about today. You're introducing clean water legislation in the spring. You've made that commitment. The government has also made a commitment to the United Nations declaration and to free, prior and informed consent.

Can you answer this question? If one first nation doesn't agree to your water legislation, is that honouring free, prior and informed consent?

Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Thank you, MP Morin. It's a pleasure to work with you. It's a pleasure to spend this time with you, not only as elected officials in the House, but also as former grand chiefs of our nation. I think that this is progress for indigenous youth who are looking toward us.

The work that has been done with regard to water has been quite significant. I want to acknowledge that the groups I met with at the Assembly of First Nations last week were very clear. They wanted to see legislation on the table.

We know that there are over 640 different indigenous communities across the country—many nations, all with their own individual relationship with water. I think we also have to speak to the fact that there is a history of trauma associated with water. When you are not able to access clean drinking water, that really does have an impact on your relationship with that service when it comes into play in community.

In terms of UNDRIP, I'm very honoured to be part of the nation that helped draft the outline of UNDRIP and contributed to it. Many leaders in my nation contributed to that. When you're looking to speak to free, prior and informed consent and what UNDRIP is seeking to do, it's about ensuring that you are contributing to the process. I think the work, which has been immense, in drafting the water legislation is going to be great progress.

There's always room for improvement. I think that applies to legislation too. When we see space for something, or when we have not addressed a component or have overlooked a component, we as a government have to respond to that. I think that it is in these tables that we will hear testimony for what reshaping legislation could look like or what legislation speaks to today.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Billy Morin Conservative Edmonton Northwest, AB

I have only so much time, so I apologize. Thank you.

If one nation is against your legislation—because there were several in the previous iteration of this legislation—is that a violation of free, prior and informed consent?

Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

That's a great question, MP Morin. I think that when one nation is expressing that they're not happy with something or they feel that something was missed for them, you have to do the work of really understanding what it is that concerns them and what they want to have addressed.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Billy Morin Conservative Edmonton Northwest, AB

Is it yes or no? Is it a violation of free, prior and informed consent if they disagree with the water legislation?

Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

I can't speak for them. They would have to determine that.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Billy Morin Conservative Edmonton Northwest, AB

However, it's your legislation.

Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

It's not the government's place to interpret whether I have violated their free, prior and informed consent. They should make the statement.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Billy Morin Conservative Edmonton Northwest, AB

If they say—

Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

They should tell me as part of the government, and I'm always here, open and willing to work with them to meet what they do not deem satisfactory in that process.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Billy Morin Conservative Edmonton Northwest, AB

If the nation said that you violated their free, prior and informed consent with this legislation, would you agree with them?

Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

I would agree to work with them, making sure that I am creating that space to adjust whatever they don't feel has been met or whatever is unsatisfactory. That's what I believe. I believe that if you're going to work with government, if you're going to come to the table and have an expectation of something and how you wish to be served, it should be individualized. It should respond right down to the nation level, or even the community level if necessary. This is because we have to offer a quality service. We have to offer programs that align with what communities are feeling. If there is a group that is coming forward and that wishes to express that this is their position, I'm there to respond to them and support them with what they need.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Billy Morin Conservative Edmonton Northwest, AB

Is your refusal to find free, prior and informed consent a way to avoid ever being held to it?

Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

No, it is not.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Billy Morin Conservative Edmonton Northwest, AB

You will be held to free, prior and informed consent on more legislation.

Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

What the government has put forward as legislation has been defined with the community, with a lot of contribution from the community. I want to acknowledge that work. I want to acknowledge everybody who came to the table. I want to acknowledge also that last week, during sessions at the assembly, I heard from many leaders across the country who were pleased with where things were at with the legislation. However, many also expressed to me that more needs to be done. It is not my position to determine whether government has violated somebody's position of free, prior and informed consent. I want to be respectful of that.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Billy Morin Conservative Edmonton Northwest, AB

I have one more question. I'll be quick.

The public safety minister refuses to enact essential policing legislation. These reports still show that communities are in crisis. There were 20 crises declared this summer; I can name them off. Are you in agreement with declaring first nations policing essential, and will you get that done as the indigenous services minister in cabinet, yes or no?

Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

I've had a lot of really great conversations with Minister Anandasangaree. I think that we've heard a lot of things across the country. I myself have heard of many of the instances. There needs to be that support in community. What does that look like? They need to define it for themselves—

The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan

Thank you very much.

We're going to have to move on to Parliamentary Secretary Lavack.

Ginette Lavack Liberal St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB

Minister, thank you very much for being with us today.

The Auditor General identified four systemic barriers to progress. There's a lack of sustained management attention, a lack of clarity around service levels, capacity challenges and a siloed approach.

What steps is your department taking to address these barriers in a coordinated manner?