Evidence of meeting #25 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was implementation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Executive Councillor, Yanyeidi, Teslin Tlingit Council
Contrary to popular belief, Teslin Tlingit Council prefers not to go to court. Unfortunately, we've been forced to by different administrations and by different governments.
What other tools do we have? We have legislative authority within Teslin Tlingit Council with all Yukon self-governing first nations. If Canada won't work with us or if the Yukon won't work with us, we have the ability to pass our own legislation, to take over the fields and to occupy that power.
However, we try to work together. We try to work with Canada and with the Yukon. I think the modern treaty commissioner would help facilitate that working together, that collaboration.
Thank you.
Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Qujannamiik for the question.
I would take the opportunity to make the point that it's been a long wait for the commissioner's office. The timing is quite good, because you now have several decades of Supreme Court of Canada cases providing contour to the legal landscape, including with respect to the honour of the Crown. You also have academic commentary and policy in place, which will allow everyone to understand what the honour of the Crown means in this context, including the commissioner, so that they can provide more detail on how implementation is going in the legal context.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan
Thank you very much.
Mrs. Gill, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Côte-Nord—Kawawachikamach—Nitassinan, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
To begin with, members will understand why Bill C‑10 is of interest to the Bloc Québécois. Someone pointed out that I'm a sovereignist, of course. I can only speak for myself, but what sovereignists want is to break free from the shackles of colonialism. Quebec didn't experience colonialism in the same way as first nations, Métis and Inuit people, who are still experiencing it. Nevertheless, I firmly believe that, for a nation to exist—that is, for its language, culture and identity to be preserved—it cannot recognize any government other than its own. It must aspire to self-government because the existence of one nation or people cannot be left in the hands of another.
On that note, I would like to give the floor to Grand Chief Murdoch and, if we have time, Councillor Aucoin and Professor Wright. I want to give them the last word in this study. I thank them in advance and give them the floor.
Cree Nation Government
I agree that it never works when one nation speaks for another. I think that's why we welcomed the creation of a commissioner position. I've often heard people compare this role to a bridge. Having a bridge helps, because sometimes it's too great a burden to put on one nation to have to adapt its language, its position and its perspective in order to be understood by another nation. The commissioner will be a tremendous help in reducing that burden and being more faithful to our own vision of governance.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Côte-Nord—Kawawachikamach—Nitassinan, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Aucoin and Mr. Wright, go ahead.
Executive Councillor, Yanyeidi, Teslin Tlingit Council
Thank you.
Teslin Tlingit Council, as I mentioned before, is a legislative authority. Language and culture are essential to who we are as inland Tlingit. We passed our language and culture act, and then we developed our implementation plan and came up with our budget and work plan. We presented this to Canada, and unfortunately Canada just used some formula that they use for Indian Act bands and for everyone else. It's like we didn't even sign a treaty, and they just offered us pocket change after all the Crown had done to destroy our language and culture. That's not negotiation; that's take it or leave it.
A modern treaty commissioner would help point out to Canada that they're not living up to the spirit, intent or text of our agreements, or to protecting essentially the core of who we are as Tlingit—our language and culture. I also hold my hands up to my Acadian people, because I walk with two legs through this world, both of which I love. Thank you.
Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Calgary, As an Individual
That's fair.
It's been said by a number of folks previously, including former Gwich'in Tribal Council grand chief Bobbie Joe Greenland-Morgan, that modern treaties ought to be viewed more as a marriage than a divorce arrangement. I would answer very succinctly by saying that the commissioner stands to help the marriage go better and to help the Crown understand that this is more of a marriage than a divorce.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan
Thank you very much.
For the very last spot, we have the Liberals.
Mr. Ramsay, you have the floor for five minutes.
Liberal
Jacques Ramsay Liberal La Prairie—Atateken, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
This is my first time on this committee. I'm very pleased to hear from first nations that they were involved in developing this bill and that they are satisfied with their participation.
Mr. Wright, in addition to our government's obligation to consult first nations, we also had obligations under the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. To what extent do you believe that Bill C‑10 reflects the declaration that Canada signed on to?
Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
It's an excellent question. I'd answer it in a couple of ways.
First, starting in 2016 with then minister Carolyn Bennett, Canada provided its full support for implementation of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. That then became a legislated commitment through the federal UNDRIP implementation act. Of course, there's a provincial one in British Columbia, which has been the subject matter of some discussion recently. The Northwest Territories also has a statute in place committing to the implementation of UNDRIP.
Under this, you have a requirement for an action plan. That's the one I cited earlier. In place right now is the 2023-28 action plan. Within that action plan, there's a chapter dedicated to modern treaties, which was done collaboratively. Again, I give credit to Canada's officials on that. Within it, you have commitments. For example, there's a commitment to pursue the creation of this very office, and that's a road map for the implementation of UNDRIP.
In one way, to answer your question, the commissioner is simply follow-through on a commitment to implement UNDRIP, but perhaps this is a more important point: There's ongoing discussion and consideration by courts across Canada of the legal status of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples in Canada. Some view it as merely aspirational; some view provisions within UNDRIP as customary international law that therefore have application within Canada, and some throw their hands up and don't know what the truth is or where the law lies. There's going to be a lot of work for legal scholars in courts for years and decades to come.
What's helpful about the commissioner, and this goes to my earlier point about how the commissioner can shine a light in places where litigation can't always go, is that they will be able to use the provisions of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples as footholds for their analysis. Regardless of any fogginess around the law, the commissioner could go in and say, “Here we have these several key provisions of UNDRIP. Here we have the provisions of the modern treaty. Here we have what the government has been doing or not doing. Here's what we observe in terms of meeting the standards laid out in UNDRIP, regardless of a lack of clarity in the law to date, and here are recommendations on how to improve.”
Because accountability lies with Parliament and with the public, and it's all premised on democratic accountability—because this information goes out into the public domain—it provides healthy, fresh perspectives and evidence for everyone to do better going forward.
Liberal
Jacques Ramsay Liberal La Prairie—Atateken, QC
We've heard a lot today about the burden of constant litigation. I see that Bill C‑10 contains a provision for a review of the act in 10 years.
Grand Chief and Councillor, as someone pointed out, there's no improvement unless that improvement is measured, so I was wondering if we can reasonably expect that the number of lawsuits against the Canadian government could be used as a measure of the act's effectiveness?
Cree Nation Government
We want to avoid litigation too. Despite my profession, I've never seen it benefit the community. Litigation is not how we make progress, no matter which side we're on. It just delays progress. There are good examples of how to avoid that. For my part, I assume that the creation of a commissioner position will add another stage before litigation. That will help us avoid this unfortunate situation.
Conservative
Billy Morin Conservative Edmonton Northwest, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Executive Councillor Aucoin, thank you for your directness and your honesty. Whom did you sue?
Executive Councillor, Yanyeidi, Teslin Tlingit Council
We sued the Harper Conservatives back in 2015, and then we sued the Trudeau Liberals in 2018.
Conservative
Billy Morin Conservative Edmonton Northwest, AB
Did you mention the NDP provincially? Is that what it was?
Executive Councillor, Yanyeidi, Teslin Tlingit Council
They're next on the list if they don't start [Inaudible—Editor].
Conservative
Billy Morin Conservative Edmonton Northwest, AB
I hope you guys can work it out, honestly.
If the governments were standing by their treaty commitments, would there be a need for a commissioner?
Executive Councillor, Yanyeidi, Teslin Tlingit Council
If they were living up to all we had agreed to in letter, spirit and intent, there wouldn't be a need for a commissioner. Unfortunately, that's not the reality we live in today, and successive governments have shown this. It's a flaw in the colonial system. It's why I said that, in a lot of ways, we get treated like Indian Act 2.0. The modern treaty commissioner would help change that sense within the government itself.
