Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 20th, 2025

[Regional Chief Abram Benedict]

There are a couple of things on that.

What I will say is that, in my experience, sadly, in community policing, organized crime is always one step ahead of policing agencies. Unfortunately, in our northern remote communities, it's the same thing. As first nation police agencies or services are trying to secure communities and keep them safe, responding to the community needs at the same time as trying to ward off organized crime, crime is one step ahead of them. This means that if a community police officer has to fly in, they have to be able to do that. Organized crime can do that quite easily, and we see that all the time in many areas combatting organized crime.

Sadly—and I appreciate you acknowledging the northern remote communities—for communities of several hundred people that are five or six hours away or communities that are remote and fly-in, where you can only get there either by winter road or by airplane, these communities have been exploited by organized crime as well. That means that most people can't get there unless they're trying to get there for a specific purpose, which is to serve the community. For organized crime, it is to exploit the community. That is why first nations policing needs the resources and needs the recognition so that communities can determine what the best approach is for them to secure community safety.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you very much, Grand Chief. We'll end it here.

I want to thank Doris, as well, for the valuable input.

We're going to suspend for a little bit while we get the next panel up.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Welcome back, everyone.

I want to welcome our second panel. We have, from the Assembly of First Nations, Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak, national chief, as well as Julie McGregor, chief of staff. From the Assembly of First Nations Québec-Labrador, we have Francis Verreault-Paul, chief.

Each witness will have five minutes to provide us with some important information, and then we'll have a few rounds of questions so you guys can expand and such.

Thank you very much. Without further ado, I will turn it over to Cindy.

Thank you.

[National Chief Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak, Assembly of First Nations]

Thank you.

This is the most Monday Monday ever. I really hope that tonight we can all unite and make sure our Blue Jays win. Hopefully, we're not too late today, but I just wanted to say that it was a good game yesterday. It took me two hours to get out of there. There were 45,000, mostly Canadians. It was nice to see. Everybody was united, so let's unite. Maybe we can unite behind first nations policing as well and walk with us.

[Witness spoke in Anishinaabemowin and provided the following text:]

Aneen, Boozooh, Apiichi-gii-chii-nay-dum Akiinaah o-gii-bii-izah-iing omahh noo-gom.

[Witness provided the following translation:]

Hello, I’m very honoured to be with you all and glad you are all able to attend this event today.

[English]

Thank you so very much.

For those of you who don't know me, I'm Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak. I'm the national chief of the Assembly of First Nations.

As you know, the Assembly of First Nations is representative of 634 first nations in the country. We try to come together from coast to coast to coast. We gather and try to find our way through common issues. I invite each and every one of you, on December 2, 3 and 4 here in Ottawa, to please come and speak to our first nations. There are so many issues all the time, but we offer an open invitation to this House to join us to work together and find our way through many of these issues we find so dear to make our country the best it can be.

My role as national chief is to always advocate for first nations priorities, as directed by chiefs in assembly, first nations in assembly, to protect our collective and inherent rights. That includes first nations justice.

I'd like to acknowledge that we are here on the territory of the Algonquin nation.

I want to thank the committee for the invitation to appear and the chiefs who are here with us today. We lift up Ontario Regional Chief Benedict for his remarks and leadership on this file earlier today. I also acknowledge my colleague Regional Chief Francis Verreault-Paul, who is joining me here today from Quebec. I'm so proud of him for being here and taking on this work. We've had all of our regional chiefs from coast to coast come in today, and I want to welcome them all to this place.

This December, of course, marks the 10th anniversary of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's historic final report. With this important anniversary, we see a timely opening for substantive discussions about closing the significant gaps that remain in our society between first nations and non-indigenous Canadians. These gaps have perpetuated deep-rooted inequality in Canada, led to poorer health outcomes, unsafe communities, limited education opportunities and less prosperity for first nations compared to other Canadians.

This is why Canada needs to make strategic nation-building infrastructure investments in the next budget to provide basic services for first nations like clean drinking water, quality housing, modern schools for our kids and community safety and policing.

First nations have rights, under the Constitution and international law, to safety and security. Too often, discriminatory police action leads to serious injuries or deaths, overpolicing off reserve, underpolicing on reserve and over-representation of first nations people in federal corrections. When people lack access to adequate and safe housing, schools and community resources, they are often led down a path that ends in the justice system and encounters with police.

To be effective, first nations policing must be rooted in community values, not colonial models. Today, first nations-led police forces—and I recognize we have a few with us here today and thank them for their lifelong service to first nations—are demonstrating how community-based, culturally grounded models of policing can lead to safer, healthier outcomes in all regions. They don't just enforce laws. First nations police embody community values. They lead with peace before force, but they are underappreciated.

The failure of provincial and federal governments to end this discrimination in first nations policing and our justice system contradicts the spirit of reconciliation. Last week, there was another example. We acknowledge Canada's announcement to invest $1.8 billion over four years to hire 1,000 RCMP officers. Unfortunately, there is no first nations-specific carve-out included in that. We have asked and, to date, have no reply, so we look to this committee to help us with that. Will this be another missed opportunity?

In March 2024—and again this month, in Ottawa—the Auditor General of Canada weighed in. While national police budgets have increased, she concluded that there are few results and that Canada did not even have a fair formula to allocate first nations policing dollars. The Auditor General said the RCMP is receiving first nations policing funds for officers who do not exist. Millions in budgeted police funding has gone unspent.

At our last December assembly, chiefs were united in calling for a federal inquiry into discriminatory police practices after more than a dozen first nations people died in the custody of colonial police forces across Canada last summer and fall.

After police in Manitoba refused to search the landfill for our sisters.... Injustice and crime persist. Chief Benedict described the situation in Ontario. We lift up the Nishnawbe Aski Nation chiefs of Ontario, who declared a state of emergency across their 49 communities, over illicit drugs and gang violence. You will hear this from Quebec chiefs and first nations leaders from across the country.

Chiefs were reassured during the election when Prime Minister Carney recognized first nations policing as an essential service during our AFN forum. He said we must “move as quickly as possible” to ensure delivery of essential services on first nations. He said he wanted to move to self-administered first nations policing services and “to give control over these services” to a range of self-administered policing service agreements and community tripartite agreements.

It's now been almost one year since the Supreme Court weighed in on this issue. In fact, two recent decisions by the Federal Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court confirmed rulings by the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal that funding and negotiations, under the first nations policing program, were discriminatory. Recently, the Canadian Human Rights Commission validated a complaint by the Quebec Association of First Nation and Inuit Police Directors—which represents 22 police services—and transferred the case to the Human Rights Tribunal. They join the Indigenous Police Chiefs of Ontario, which is also engaged in active litigation before the tribunal.

This means nearly all self-administered police services have taken Canada to court over mismanagement of the program and discriminatory funding practices. Three of these services were forced to file for immediate relief in federal court to ensure they had funding and could provide police services to their communities. They also sought immediate changes to restrictive and discriminatory terms and conditions, which Public Safety used to deny requests for the funding increases needed for specialized services to combat gang violence and drug trafficking. While the legal proceedings were ongoing, the Minister of Public Safety unilaterally changed the restrictive terms and conditions, demonstrating that the ineffective program is not a real limitation but rather a choice. This would not be acceptable in any other Canadian community.

Unfortunately, more legal challenges will be heard this year unless Canada acts with deeds as much as it says the words. The situation is dire, but we all know what we need. Thanks to years of research, advocacy and engagement, we all have the knowledge that's necessary around this table. What we need now, of course, is your political will.

Chi-meegwetch. Thank you for welcoming us here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you very much.

Chief Francis Verreault-Paul, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Chief Francis Verreault-Paul, Assembly of First Nations Quebec-Labrador]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Kuei kassinu etashiek. Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, my name is Francis Verreault‑Paul, and I'm the proud pekuakamiulnu of the Innu nation. As chief of the Assembly of First Nations Quebec-Labrador, the AFNQL, I thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today on first nations and Inuit policing and public safety. The AFNQL wishes to shed light on the systemic challenges these services face, particularly in Quebec, where there are 22 indigenous police forces, and propose concrete solutions.

First and foremost, I want to commend and acknowledge the exceptional work of our indigenous police officers who are currently on the job and those who have been in the past few years. They are extremely brave. I would also like to acknowledge the work of the Association des directeurs de police des Premières Nations et Inuits du Québec, as well as all the police officers across Turtle Island.

Indigenous police forces perform duties comparable to those of non-indigenous forces, but they aren't always recognized as essential services. This lack of recognition has a direct impact on funding, stability, staff retention and the ability to provide culturally safe services.

In early 2025, the former prime minister of Canada committed to supporting jurisdiction in priority areas, including policing. Therefore, the AFNQL recommends that the Government of Canada, in collaboration with first nations, introduce a bill to confirm the right of first nations to establish their own culturally appropriate police services and officially recognize these indigenous police forces as essential services.

Funding for first nations police services under tripartite agreements remains lower than for non-indigenous services, despite their having equivalent responsibilities. Although progress has been made in equipment and infrastructure, staffing levels remain inadequate, compromising 24-7 coverage.

In Quebec, the per-officer costs for the Sûreté du Québec have increased more in comparison to the funding for indigenous police services. When investments are compared, the gap not only persists but continues to expand, despite the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal decision of 2022.

The cost of training for an indigenous candidate is exponentially higher than it is for a non-indigenous candidate. For example, a community in Quebec recently spent $25,000 to train four candidates in the use of tasers. Additionally, police services operating in remote regions face high operational costs and significant logistical challenges. These realities must be taken into account in funding models that are adapted to actual conditions.

The AFNQL thus demands that Public Safety Canada undertake a comprehensive revision of the first nations and Inuit policing program to ensure that funding levels reflect the principle of substantive equality. This includes covering the full costs associated with training, skills development and operations in remote communities to ensure recruitment and retention.

Access to police training for first nations police forces in Quebec is hampered by two major factors.

In terms of language, the École nationale de police du Québec and Quebec's Ministère de la Sécurité publique do not give priority to English-language training, which excludes a number of candidates from English-speaking communities. Even training offered elsewhere, such as by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Saskatoon, is impeded by Quebec's regulatory requirements.

Administratively, bureaucratic constraints also lead to significantly lengthy and costly processes. When a police force applies for federal funding for training, it must comply with Quebec's Act respecting the Ministère du Conseil exécutif. As a result, the AFNQL recommends that Public Safety Canada work upstream with Quebec's Ministère de la Sécurité publique to develop bilingual training in partnership with institutions outside Quebec, while ensuring provincial recognition.

Ever since the creation of the first nations and Inuit policing program in 1991, the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, the MMIWG, the Auditor General of Canada in 2014 and 2024, the Public Safety Canada engagement results and the recent Supreme Court decisions have time and time again said the same thing: It is time for the federal government to recognize the status and role of first nations policing, facilitate access to adapted training, correct funding inequities based on the principle of substantive equality and transform indigenous policing from “its current state [of] mere delegation to an exercise in self-governance and self-determination”.

Tshinashkumitinau. Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Now we're going to our question-and-answer round for six minutes.

MP Zimmer, go ahead, please.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you. It's good to see you again, Chief Woodhouse. How are your mom and dad doing?

[National Chief Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak]

My mom and dad are just fine and dandy. They're aging well.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

They're keeping busy. I met them last year and it was sure nice to meet them.

I have a more specific question around Inuit and first nations policing. I'm going to ask you about using an already-stressed RCMP resource for what your members have already identified is not the problem.

What I have before me is a document. I pointed it out to you before we started today. It's the “Special Chiefs Assembly”, from December 6, 7 and 8, 2022, in Ottawa. The resolution is number 39/2022. It specifically refers to Bill C-21 and firearms. I'm just going to quote a few statements that it makes. This is from page two:

Bill C-21 notably does not address the illegal sale of handguns, but instead attempts to further restrict the legal sale and ownership of handguns, creating “red flag” and “yellow flag” laws enabling suspension of firearms license, and allowing police to obtain a court order for a warrantless search and seizure with no provision for a targeted person to defend themselves.

Next, clause E says:

On November 24, 2022, the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security met to do a “clause by clause” reading of Bill C-21, and shortly after amendments were introduced adding long guns (rifles) to the banned list, potentially criminalizing many of the types of firearms currently used by First Nations people for sustenance hunting.

I will add in that it was namely the widely used SKS.

This is the resolution at the bottom of page 2:

Therefore be it resolved that the First Nations-in-Assembly:

1. Publicly oppose Bill C-21, An act to amend certain Acts and to make certain consequential amendments (firearms), which potentially criminalizes long guns (rifles) used by First Nation peoples in exercising their Aboriginal and Treaty rights to sustenance hunt and harvest.

Chief, do you as an organization still oppose Bill C-21 and the resulting firearm confiscation program, yes or no?

[National Chief Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak]

Absolutely. We follow our chiefs in assembly, and we follow our first nations in assembly. Whatever this says, that stands until it's otherwise said so by the assembly.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Chief.

We're here today talking about first nations and Inuit policing. We heard at our last committee hearing, as we've heard even from previous witnesses today—we heard from the Auditor General—that first nations and Inuit RCMP detachments are short-staffed and under-resourced. There's a lack of recruiting. It's been well known and it's very challenging for remote communities, as you just mentioned. I've travelled extensively in Yukon, Northwest Territories and Nunavut, and I've seen that first-hand.

We've heard, even today, stories about how real criminals aren't being held in custody and are being released even before their paperwork is completed.

Considering that RCMP management in Ottawa can't ensure that first nations and Inuit basic policing needs are met, do you think it's a good use of manpower and resources to go after law-abiding first nations and Inuit firearms owners when they clearly are not the problem?

[National Chief Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak]

Absolutely not. I think you're right. As I said in my statement, on reserve, we're so underpoliced. Sometimes there are first nations calling me, asking to get policing services into their communities—this is like on Saturdays. It's tough. I feel for these communities that have to constantly beg to get policing services into their communities. We have to do a better job in this country. It's been far too long.

I don't know if Julie has anything further to add to that, but there's a lot of work that we have to do. I'm glad that we're finally talking about this around this table. It should have happened a long time ago, because it's getting worse. I just feel like we don't have the resources on first nation communities compared to what they have in towns or cities.

First nations are always overlooked and pushed down. We're doing the best we can. With whatever resources we do have, we put that towards first nation communities. Let's have those discussions with first nations directly on how they would like to have policing services. It's disheartening when there are 36 police forces to date. It used to be more than that, and then there was a decline. Now, it's just staying there.

We see from the data that for community-based services with our first nation policing services, they're not trigger happy. They don't kill our people. They're there trying to be grounded in the community. I think we need to support first nation police forces.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Jamie, you have 30 seconds.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

On that comment, you just mentioned not having the resources. How does that compound the fact that in testimony we just heard in the previous meeting there is a revolving-door justice system? People are getting out on bail, committing a crime, getting out on bail, committing a crime, getting out on bail and committing a crime. Chief Abram spoke about that.

Do you have something more to add on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Please provide a short answer.

[National Chief Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak]

I'll let Julie answer.

[Julie McGregor, Chief of Staff, Assembly of First Nations]

If you look at the justice system as a whole and the starting place in terms of community-centred policing, first nations servicing their own communities with their own police forces is a way of deterring situations where offenders are going through the whole process, getting out on bail, reoffending and so forth.

There is an ability for our own community members to understand issues like mental health, addictions and so forth. There's an understanding there in terms of the connecting factors, whether they be residential school experiences or other issues. The policing is very different. It's more community-centred, so there's an ability for offenders to be recommended to go to treatment. There's more input from police officers when it's time for bail hearings.

We understand our people better than anybody else. If we look at it as a whole experience, policing that's community-based creates less of an issue with bail and people committing offences.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you.

We'll go to MP Philip Earle, and you'll probably be able to expand on that throughout the questioning.

[Philip Earle, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you.

Thank you all for appearing here today.

I'm the member of Parliament for Labrador, which has 30 communities with populations in which some or all are indigenous. Today I'm going to focus a little on the communities in northern Labrador, particularly those that are under the Nunatsiavut Government, which is self-government; the community of Natuashish, which is an Innu community; and that of Sheshatshiu.

I listened to my colleagues talk a lot about the gang violence and gun violence that we're seeing in communities across Canada. Fortunately to now, in the communities in Labrador, we're not seeing that level of gun violence—thankfully. If I were to ask a national chief for some advice on how we make sure that we never see that gun violence, what advice would you be giving me?

[Chief Francis Verreault-Paul]

The main point here is to legislate first on policing services and to recognize the services as essential services. It should not only be in terms of funding but as self-determination for first nations as well. I think this is extremely important.

We need to encourage the communities to have their own police, indigenous policing. I think this is extremely important, and we are aware of all of the reasons for it.

We heard Regional Chief Benedict talk earlier about that trust relationship. That is so important to build between the police force and members of the communities. When you have that indigenous policing in place, I think it reflects that relationship. It is extremely important.

Obviously, the other part of it is to give the resources needed to communities to make sure they are safe. I want to give an example of when we talk about being understaffed. Some of the communities have their own police, indigenous policing, but I was talking with a friend last week about this. He's on a 24-hour shift. He needs to patrol for eight hours and for the other 16 hours he's on call by himself. Yes, they have indigenous policing, but at the same time, they are very understaffed.

I think those are the two main points for keeping communities safe.

[National Chief Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak]

I'll also say that it needs a whole-of-government approach. I get that this is one program, but at the same time, we have to make sure we look at housing in first nation communities. We have a $350-billion infrastructure gap right across this country. That's huge, especially for first nations children on reserve.

I heard a stat today that only 39% of our kids on first nation communities have access to high-speed Internet. What other community would have that? You hear of one community that had things happen a couple of months ago. They couldn't even get Wi-Fi or a cellphone working. These are the realities that first nations face on the ground.

We need to have a whole-of-government approach as well. I get it. Start investing in first nations policing right away, immediately. That should be the goal of today. Also, each and every one of you should make sure that we're working on housing for first nations people. Most important is education. The more we invest in education and good, proper schools for our kids, the more we're going to help our young people to be stronger in this country.

I also have to say, when we have federal-provincial-territorial meetings.... There was a health meeting on Friday, and first nations were not even invited to it. Usually they invite us for only a couple of hours. I feel bad for previous national chiefs who have been treated like this. Then they kick us out, and they talk about real issues in the federal-provincial-territorial meetings, for instance, on health or housing. We're always kind of kicked out.

I want to thank the premiers who committed to a first ministers meeting on first nations issues. We look to this House to make sure that commitment happens and that we work together towards that.

I always want to say this about people like Mandy Gull-Masty. I feel for her, because every other minister or deputy minister, every sector, whether it's transportation, justice or policing, has an FPT table, except Indian affairs. Nobody ever wants to talk about first nations on the ground. We always get left out, including in big investments that come out on something like the $13-billion housing announcement that was made by the housing minister just a few weeks ago on the Building Canada Act. There's not even a carve-out for first nations.

Again, we see this here. Let's avoid that. Let's work together and make sure that first nations people are included in decisions in this country.

Thank you.

[Philip Earle, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

In a previous set, we heard about wraparound services and the importance of them. The witness from the SQ talked about that.

In the 20 seconds you have left, talk to me about the importance of the wraparound services combined with policing.

Thank you. Tshinashkumitin.

[Julie McGregor]

It's extremely important. The National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls spent a lot of time talking about how there needs to be wraparound services not just for families of those who go missing and murdered, but also for the supporting communities that are trying to heal in terms of long-standing issues within our communities brought on by a number of factors.

It's necessary for both the victims and the offenders. We're all trying to heal together to make healthier communities. It's so important within the context of overrepresentation as well to deal with recidivism and to deal with issues like child welfare, which was brought up.

Child welfare for most first nations individuals is always called the gateway to our prison system. We need to start at a very young age and have those wraparound support services, whether it be housing, mental health, addictions or even employment and so forth, to lift up our people and ensure they're not transferring over from the child welfare system to the prison system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for six minutes.