Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 20th, 2025

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Ms. Woodhouse Nepinak, if you make an appointment this evening to watch the baseball game, or the Canadiens game, which we mustn't forget, I'll be happy to make myself available. You seem to bring good luck. I'm sure many of my colleagues may be with you.

You began your remarks by being very critical of Ottawa's inaction and the fact that you've been on standby for a long time. You barely veiled an invitation to our committee to take this study very seriously and therefore to make strong recommendations. What recommendations should our committee make?

[Julie McGregor]

Thank you, Vice-Chair, for the question.

This issue has been studied several times in this committee and also in the Senate committees, and we've been saying the same thing from the start. First nations police services, the FNIPP, the first nations policing program, can't be a program. It can't be left up to the government. There can't be discretionary funding. It needs to be legislated as an essential service like all other non-first nation police services are.

There needs to be that stability in funding but also in terms of growth within the first nations police services. There are 36 and there have been 36 for a very long time. There are more and more first nations that are prepared to take on their own police services and just need the ability to do that, to have the go-ahead, to have the essential services legislation, obviously.

Also, first nations police services need to be accountable to communities. First nations need to feel that they have input in terms of how their communities are being policed and make sure it meets their cultural needs, their cultural standards and their community needs.

Like the regional chief said, you currently have officers who are in remote areas policing by themselves with poor infrastructure, poor equipment and poor training. They're left alone to police large tracts of land. That's very dangerous. There should be some standards developed by first nations for their policing services and, of course, for adequate funding.

We're always talking about funding. There are 36 stand-alone first nations police services across Canada, and 32 of them are fighting the government right now in court just for equitable funding. You can look at the Auditor General's report from 2024. There was $13 million unaccounted for. They weren't sure where $45 million of it would be spent, under FNIPP for the 2023-24 fiscal year.

Our communities need the funding. They need the ability to develop their own police services, and the police services themselves need to be essential services. Those are always going to be our recommendations.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, meegwetch.

National Chief Verreault‑Paul, I also want to ask you this, because you began by mentioning how important it is that indigenous policing be recognized as an essential service. Obviously, that's certainly rooted in the concept of funding. The resources have to be available beyond the concept of programs, which, as Ms. McGregor just said, is significantly limited, particularly in terms of fields of application or bureaucracy.

Are you recommending that the committee recognize indigenous services as essential services?

[Chief Francis Verreault-Paul]

Absolutely. I think that's the most important aspect here. We also have to agree on the definition of an essential service. We had this discussion when I was chief of staff to the former chief of the Assembly of First Nations Quebec-Labrador, Ghislain Picard. We've discussed this over the past year. In the definition of what constitutes an essential service, there's an aspect the government got stuck on, that of provincial and territorial jurisdictions, the role of the Government of Canada and the role of first nations governments. This is extremely important. So there's funding, yes, but there's also self-determination. It's extremely important that future legislation be able to recognize this aspect. That's our hope.

The other aspect we strongly recommend is that the future legislation be drafted in co-development. I didn't mention it earlier, but it's extremely important that the legislation be drafted in co-development with first nations. In recent years, there have been a number of recommendations, several reports and several consultations, and last year, there were national consultations.

I think the solutions are on the table and that now it's important to carry them forward into legislation.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I invite you to submit that reflection to us, as well as the definition of an essential service, so that the committee can adopt it. At the very least, we should make sure that it can be debated here as well.

One of the problems is a lack of resources. Could you tell us what the effects of this lack of resources are? Earlier, you said that only 22 communities in Quebec have indigenous police services. Why is it not a priority to have them in 100% of the communities?

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Unfortunately, that's all the time we have, but perhaps it will come out as we ask questions.

MP Morin, you have five minutes.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Thank you, Chiefs, for coming.

Of course, we can't be great leaders without support staff, so thank you, Julie McGregor.

I thank you guys for highlighting what we've all known for years—even the last panel said this—which is that the real solutions to policing lie in the communities themselves.

It's a huge country, with 600-plus first nations. A lot of them do policing, security and family differently, but there is a holistic uniqueness to what they have in common, which is underfunding, being undersupported and a lack of political will and jurisdictional recognition from the government when it comes to policing. After the 2022 mass killings at James Smith Cree Nation, the prime minister at the time promised to make indigenous policing a police service.

I'll build upon my Bloc colleague's last question, which wasn't answered. Perhaps the national chief or the regional chief can answer this.

It's been three years. Can you expand on the real consequences of not keeping that promise and the commitment from the current government, and of not making this essential? There is still a high rate of crime, a high rate of victimhood in our communities and a higher rate of people bringing drugs into our communities.

This commitment was made three years ago. Can you talk about the effects of that commitment not being fulfilled?

[National Chief Cindy Woodhouse Nepinak]

I'll start and the regional chief will follow up after.

Absolutely, there are real consequences. We've seen time and time again, every week, unfortunately—every single week, if not every day—that there are consequences right across the country to not investing in first nations policing in first nation communities. Time is so important, and we need to get results. As King Charles said when he came here.... What was his thing on deeds? We need more deeds in this country, rather than just talking.

I challenge this country to get back to the table with us. As the regional chief stated—and I echo him—the work has been done. Chiefs have been across the country and first nations have been across the country, putting solutions on the table. Our communities will come to you with what they wish for, but we need to have those discussions and a real political willingness to change things. I hope that we have it and that if we do come up with something, we all come together in a good way to make sure that it moves forward in a good way.

I look to this committee to be those leaders and those drivers to make that change and make sure that first nations are getting the support they need right on the ground.

Regional Chief, go ahead.

[Chief Francis Verreault-Paul]

I'll quickly add the political aspect of it. As it was mentioned by Julie, we're all in litigation because of it. This is one aspect of the consequences.

Since I got elected, I've been talking about an aspect.... We've all been talking about reconciliation. I like the importance of legislative reconciliation. This is a tremendous opportunity for the federal government to put that in place with a law on indigenous policing. I want to flag that, as well, as a consequence.

[Julie McGregor]

If I can make one quick comment, because we do have the indigenous chiefs of police services with us, the practical aspects of that are the burnout and the issues with our first nations police services, the fact that we have high turnover rates. A lot of first nations police services are poached by the RCMP, the SQ or the OPP because they're well-trained. They're good police services, but they're not paid right and they're not compensated right. There's often a very limited future for them, so there's a lot of burnout and turnover. We're really training first nations officers to work for non-first nations police services.

Thank you.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

I hear you, Chiefs, when you say that the bottom line is that we know the solutions. It's frustrating too to have 32 litigations going on out of 36 across the country. Again, we hear talking points from the government about how they know what the answer is. We wouldn't have litigation if they just enforced the answer that they keep saying they know. Instead, we've been hearing about $13 million spent on officers who never came to the communities. When it comes to these issues, it's extremely frustrating to hear.

This is a more holistic thing too when it comes to justice reform and justice in the communities. We see communities, like the Kainai two weeks ago, doing their own justice system. The Yukon first nations are doing their own justice system. The Senate has advanced legislation allowing indigenous police to enforce indigenous laws and indigenous prosecutors to handle those cases, in Bill S-223 and Bill S-224. Sometimes in our communities, tough love is still love. We have a banishment bylaw that the RCMP enforces for us.

I'm wondering if you can speak, National Chief, on the importance of recognizing first nation laws and justice systems as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

I'm sorry, but that's all the time we have.

It is MP Lavack who is up next.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much for being here today, for your testimony and for all the information you're sharing.

I'll get right to the heart of it. Accountability and trust, as we know, are at the heart of community safety. From your perspective, how can indigenous police services maintain that accountability to their communities within the broader framework of working with federal and provincial systems?

[Julie McGregor]

Indigenous police services themselves are accountable to the communities, with the way it currently is. If it was better funded, there would be better governance and oversight, but there isn't right now. It's an underfunded program. Nevertheless, the accountability is the fact these are our own community members who are serving us and who are also accountable to us. There is that built-in system of accountability. Definitely, in terms of looking at legislation, if it was legislated as an essential service, there would be legislative standards with respect to governance included in there as well.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Can you also expand a bit on the recruitment and retention piece you mentioned earlier? What can the federal and provincial governments that are supporting this do to help the situation with regard to recruitment and retention?

[Julie McGregor]

I can only say it so many times: fund equitably. Currently, the funding model is that the federal government goes to the province and says, “Hey, what's your 48%? We'll throw in our 52%.” The province decides it's x amount for so many officers. It's probably under what's needed, but that's what they're going to put in, so the feds come in and say that they'll do their 52%. There are constant situations where, as the regional chief said, first nations are putting in money for infrastructure, for equipment, for training and all of that.

[Chief Francis Verreault-Paul]

Can I add one element?

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Yes.

[Chief Francis Verreault-Paul]

It's specific to our region about training. I really want to highlight this. I think I mentioned it in my speech.

In Quebec, there's that specificity about languages. I'll put it that way. In close to half of the communities, the working language is English, and in the other half it's French. Due to the systemic barrier—I'll say it that way as well—of the languages, the training for the English working communities is really tough. I mentioned those systemic barriers with Quebec, and I think they have an important responsibility to play in this as well.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Chief Verreault‑Paul, Quebec has entered into very specific agreements with a number of indigenous police forces. What are the lessons learned from those partnerships that should inform future federal legislation on indigenous policing?

[Chief Francis Verreault-Paul]

One solution would be to have the federal government, the provincial government and the first nations governments at the same table to work on a tripartite partnership. Even though we're here to discuss the federal government's role, the fact remains that the provincial and territorial governments also have an extremely important role to play in implementing self-determination for first nations by encouraging them and not getting in their way. I invite all of us to work together to that end, including, of course, the federal government.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Chief Verreault‑Paul, Quebec has made some progress thanks to the Viens commission. However, many of the recommendations in the commission's final report depend on federal government funding. What has the federal government done since that report was tabled?

In addition, what should be done to ensure policing? Should that be done through legislation rather than the program we talked about earlier? According to the Auditor General's figures, $48 million from that program's funds have not been spent. What are we waiting for to bring the parties together at that table you've been talking about for some time?

[Chief Francis Verreault-Paul]

I can only speak from the first nations' perspective. As I said to Ms. Lavack, we're ready to sit at that table to do that work. It's extremely important to re-establish the tripartite committee between the provincial government, Canada and the first nations governments. The first nations have bilateral relationships with the federal and provincial governments, and the federal government has a bilateral relationship with the provincial government, but all too often, the three governments aren't at the same table. Building a trilateral relationship is an important issue. Parties have to be together at the same time. I hope the committee will recommend this.

At the risk of repeating myself, the first thing to aim for is a bill, co-developed with the first nations, to recognize first nations policing as an essential service. It's also important to take a holistic view of the matter. For example, as we said earlier, the importance of educating and training future police officers has to be taken into account in their recruitment and retention. One of the key elements in retention is to provide enough resources, because police officers who are alone or who have too little assistance are at risk of suffering from burnout after several years. In short, there are many aspects to consider.