Evidence of meeting #12 for Industry and Technology in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Mélanie Joly  Minister of Industry
Vincent  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Industry Sector, Department of Industry
Jennings  Deputy Minister, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, Department of Industry
Tanton  Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation Canada, Department of Industry
Martel  Director General, Innovation Canada, Department of Industry

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

I don't want to get into worst‑case scenarios. Our goal right now is to thwart any possibility of this happening. My main goal will be to fight for jobs. I'm well aware that the government has leverage and resources at its disposal. The automotive market in Canada accounts for two million vehicles. It's a major market, especially for American manufacturers. They don't necessarily have such a prominent foreign market. My goal will be to apply pressure by working with the provincial governments and the unions. I believe that this will improve the situation.

I clearly told the CEO that there would be political pressure. My goal is to increase that pressure. I look forward to working with the Bloc Québécois on this issue.

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette—Manawan, QC

Thank you, Ms. Joly.

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

Ms. Dancho, you have the floor for five minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Minister.

I would like to drill down on this Brampton issue again. It's 3,000 jobs, as you've said. You've linked the contract—the SIF retooling with Brampton and Windsor—to the NextStar plant.

I need to understand something. You mentioned there was a production guarantee for the Brampton SIF agreement, but you did not specify an employment guarantee number. Was it 3,000 jobs that the SIF agreement for Brampton guaranteed?

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

I will provide that information because obviously there is commercially sensitive information—

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

If I may just interrupt for a moment—

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

No, I don't want to be interrupted, Mr. Chair. I want to be able to finish my sentence, please.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Minister and MP Dancho, here's what I'm going to do.

When we ask the minister to appear, we want the minister to have an opportunity to give answers and we want members to have an opportunity to ask questions. I'm not going to hold the time of her response against your time. This time on the clock is paused, so you're okay.

Minister, I'll let you finish the response.

Madam Dancho, I'll ask you to let her complete her response. Then, minister, I'll ask you to let her complete.... I'm not going to hold the clock hostage.

Minister, you may finish and then, MP Dancho, it will be back to you.

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

I think it's important, when you look at the different contracts that, first and foremost, particularly on the battery front, the contract is one-third the Government of Ontario and two-thirds the Government of Canada. It's not $15 billion. I know the MP has referred to $15 billion from the Government of Canada, but it's actually together.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Minister, I will have to cut you off because that isn't what I asked you specifically—

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

To go specifically to the job numbers, we'll look at what is possible to make public because of commercially sensitive information—

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

If I may, on that specific point, please—

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

I just want to finish my answer to your question.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

If you will allow me, Minister, it is my time, so I'm just going to have to respond.

On the commercially sensitive redactions in the SIF agreement for NextStar, the guarantee of 2,500 jobs was not redacted. It stands to reason that it wouldn't be commercially sensitive under a different SIF agreement. Surely you can tell us if there was a 3,000-job guarantee for Brampton that's not commercially sensitive information.

It is concerning to me that you're not committing to a jobs guarantee for the Brampton facility.

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

That's not what I am saying.

I am saying that all the plants were linked and all the contracts are linked, so you will be able to see it when we will be producing—

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

If there wasn't a jobs guarantee of 3,000 people at Brampton, which is the whole reason you're here, then how is it that you're tying all of the money to a jobs guarantee that may or may not exist? You should be able to tell us if there is a guarantee for the 3,000 jobs in Brampton.

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

I think you're falling into the trap of trying to find a problem where there is none, because what the government was trying to do—

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

The problem is that 3,000 people were laid off and your government committed millions and billions of dollars, in fact. We're trying to understand if there is—

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

MP Dancho, I don't know whether you want this to be a monologue or if you want me here. If you want this to be a monologue, I don't need to be here.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

The question I am asking you is very clear.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Colleagues, I am going to pause again for a moment. I want to ensure that we have an opportunity for dialogue. I think that's the ultimate goal here.

Minister, if you can give us maybe 30 seconds, we're hoping to split the time with Mr. Seeback, for whom there would be three minutes or so left.

Minister, would you give us about a 30-second answer here?

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

Yes.

Ultimately, the goal was to create jobs, so obviously there were job numbers and obviously it was linked to the fact that we needed to protect the Brampton facility. I was not negotiating at the time, but this is clear through the evaluation and by just reading the contracts. When you see that there are contracts that are linked to investing in the Windsor plant and the Brampton facility, and when you see the Windsor NextStar—basically Stellantis and LG—contracts linked to the Brampton facility, clearly it was to protect the jobs. That was the position of the government.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

If I may, again, what we're trying to dig down into is whether your government instituted a clause in one of these three agreements that guaranteed the broader Stellantis footprint in Canada, including the 3,000 jobs that were just laid off. You know this.

What I am trying to drill down to is whether there was something in the contracts. There isn't one in here. Brampton isn't even mentioned in the contract for the NextStar agreement. I understand they can be linked. There is a clause—14.1(g)—that may link it to the Brampton facility, but you're not committing to whether there was a clear jobs guarantee in there. Your argument is, “No, we're covered. We're suing them on clear grounds”, but you're not telling us, in fact, if there were 3,000 jobs guaranteed in that SIF agreement.

That's the real question I have, because there were significant commitments, as you know, of up to $15 billion in partnership with Ontario. We also have another billion dollars of capital investment for the retooling of Brampton and Windsor under the SIF agreement. I am trying to nail down if there is a jobs requirement for Brampton. There is a further $500 million in this SIF agreement for NextStar. We're talking about billions and billions of dollars.

In our estimation, in the historic investment that your government has made, surely there should be an explicit Canada-wide jobs guarantee, but we're splitting hairs here. You're being quite evasive about the numbers and whether there is a real guarantee. It should be explicit if you're going to give an historic amount of taxpayer funding.

In fact, just to wrap up, I will say this: I am not sure if you understand the magnitude of the money you've committed, but I did some math and the number of two-parent, full-time working households that had to work for your government to provide just those contributions to Stellantis—

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

Since you interrupted me before, I would like to—