Evidence of meeting #36 for Industry and Technology in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was computing.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Dominique O'Rourke Liberal Guelph, ON
That's great.
I want to go back to Mr. Sanders.
You talked about AI helping to accelerate quantum. We've heard the whole range of perceptions on AI, from pausing to the jobs being gone in 18 to 24 months. I'm glad you said we need to avoid exaggerated claims. Why is it important to proceed with AI adoption with the right regulations? Why is it important to proceed at this time?
Professor, Institute for Quantum Science and Technology, University of Calgary, As an Individual
I think we're one part of a large world. The world is racing ahead on AI. It's going to grow and happen, wherever that happens to be. As Canadians, we have to be smart about how we engage and not hide from it.
Liberal
Bloc
Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette—Manawan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I won't have time to ask you all my questions, so I'm going to ask the clerk to send you the list of questions I could have asked you. If you could provide an answer, we could include that in the document we'll be preparing. However, I'm going to ask you two questions one after the other.
How fast do you see AI developing in this country?
Why do we need a social dialogue focusing on AI?
Please answer in two minutes, if you can.
Research Representative, Canadian Union of Public Employees, Canadian Telecommunications Workers Alliance
We don't know exactly how fast it's going to go. However, more and more people believe that the speed at which it will develop is getting close to the way things now stand.
What was your second question?
Research Representative, Canadian Union of Public Employees, Canadian Telecommunications Workers Alliance
That should be established with all civil society partners.
I'm going to pick up on a question from Ms. O'Rourke earlier. I think that, at a minimum, the 10 or 12 services that Public Safety Canada recognizes as critical should be protected. We should ensure that we have data sovereignty for all those sectors, including the telecommunications sector. The Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, or CRTC, has already established regulations for next-generation 9-1-1. It is therefore possible for telecommunications companies to keep all their equipment on Canadian soil. Why not do so for other telecommunications services apart from emergency services?
If it can be done, let's do it.
Bloc
Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette—Manawan, QC
Do you think it would be appropriate for the House to create a special standing committee on AI, seeing as it covers many sectors?
Research Representative, Canadian Union of Public Employees, Canadian Telecommunications Workers Alliance
That could be an excellent idea, yes.
Bloc
Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette—Manawan, QC
I only have ten seconds left. I'll send you my other questions by email.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Mr. Ste‑Marie, you have 45 seconds left, so you can ask another question.
Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette—Manawan, QC
Okay.
Can you tell me about other countries that are considering repatriating telecommunications matters within their own borders?
Lead Organizer, United Steelworkers National Local 1944, Canadian Telecommunications Workers Alliance
I do know that last year, in India, they hosted the largest telecommunications conference on the continent. The theme of that conference was self-reliance. I know they're trying to create those systems in other countries while at the same time hosting work that our networks are dependent on. I think we should take note and really hammer out some domestic policies that look after not only the citizens of the country but also the workers who support those citizens.
Research Representative, Canadian Union of Public Employees, Canadian Telecommunications Workers Alliance
Last year, the United States also started working on a bill to repatriate call centres located abroad. In March, the Federal Communications Commission, which is the equivalent of the CRTC in the United States, also launched a consultation on repatriating the call centres of telecommunications companies, so that Americans can better protect their personal data and be assured that they can talk to someone on American soil.
We think we should do the same thing.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Thank you, Mr. Ste‑Marie.
Ms. Dancho, the floor is yours for five minutes.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd first like to thank and welcome our new committee members.
Welcome to this committee. We're very happy to have you, and we look forward to working with you today and in the studies moving forward. You're very welcome here.
Thank you to the witnesses for being with us today as well. I really appreciate your expert testimony. This is an excellent study, and we have quite a range of perspectives today.
I want to ask a few questions of Mr. Mandryk.
In the fall, we touched base and did some important work together regarding some offshoring of critical jobs. You touched on this today. They were background technician jobs that were offshored.
In the context of the conversation today, I'm wondering if you can elaborate on the confidence, or lack of confidence, that gives you on how Canada is entering this phase of cybersecurity and data protection. Where do you feel those jobs will land in terms of what should remain within our borders and what we could, perhaps, offshore, if a company chose to do so? I think you're of the opinion that for security reasons and other reasons, these jobs should not have been offshored. Is that correct?
Lead Organizer, United Steelworkers National Local 1944, Canadian Telecommunications Workers Alliance
That is correct. Thank you for the question and thank you for the work we did together back in October in trying to keep those jobs here in Canada.
When Rogers moved these workers over to Ericsson and then a few months later Ericsson decided to offshore the work to India, my phone blew up. As an organizer, we were in the midst of organizing that group. Obviously, when a major shift like that happens to their employment.... We were there to sign cards and, hopefully, build some stability for them. My phone absolutely blew up.
If you're not listening to the technicians whose hands are on the infrastructure, who work on this infrastructure, who upload new software and who make sure everything is functioning and working so we don't have to think about it.... They were the ones who were the most concerned. I must have heard this dozens of times: “If you knew what I knew, if you did the work that I did, you would be petrified of that work going overseas.”
What concerns me—and I think concerns organized labour as well—is that the companies doing this have earned a trusted status within government to manage their networks, and they have, to a good degree, but when the work starts to expand overseas and operational control and operational capacity are given—because they weren't taken; they were willingly given by Rogers and Ericsson—to workers overseas, that's when the concern starts to happen.
This is where the voice of the workers needs to be a part of whatever dialogue we're having on the future of AI. The actual hands-on knowledge of where things are buried, and what works and why it does, is important. Those voices should be listened to, especially when it comes to national security.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
You would support, perhaps, an enhanced modernized data classification system, so that perhaps these jobs and others like them could remain sovereign and in Canada's control and not be externalized or offshored. Is that correct? Are you feeling that the government doesn't have that standard, is not meeting that standard or should revisit that standard?
Lead Organizer, United Steelworkers National Local 1944, Canadian Telecommunications Workers Alliance
“Standards” is actually an interesting way to put it. That's true. The standards that are governed by the federal government are there for federally regulated industries like aviation, telecom and banking. What's happening, and what we've noticed with the Ericsson situation with Rogers, is that when those workers were moved over, Ericsson opposed our application at the Canada labour board, saying that they're not a telecom company and that these workers weren't federally regulated anymore—they were provincial.
All of a sudden, the accountability federally for workers who are in telecom—again, with hands on the infrastructure—is now being diluted by companies who are saying that maybe they should be governed by only the provincial laws and not the federal laws.